gun control lobbyists

dwc1973

New member
you ever get the feeling that pro-gun control politicians target law abiding gun owners because we are easy targets? it's cheaper for them to pass policy than to actually do something beneficial to society as a whole.

they can't stop the criminal element from committing crimes. how? so as a show of doing something, they pass "gun control" policy....."gun control".... a misguided attempt at curbing crime. they are at a loss as to how to curb the crime rate effectively so they choose to legislate for more "gun control" instead. its misdirection at best. they attempt to pass policy on one group because its easier than actually tackling the real problem.
 

JBriggs

New member
They target law-abiding gun owners because they can not target the criminals who own them illegally. "We" are sitting ducks to them and an easy way to get votes from the scared masses they pander to.
 

Buzzcook

New member
It's the quick fix that sells to the public. It doesn't matter what the problem, one of the alternatives is going to be a quick fix.
One of the problems with the gun control debate is the "tough on crime" mantra works in favor of draconian gun control.
Another is that the right wing anti-gun control advocates are also anti-social spending which rules out many of the alternative solutions.

Case in point the Omaha idiot. The odds of his going off would have been greatly reduced if the US had a functional health care system.

Pretty much mirrors the abortion debate the anti-choice folk hate abortion but as a rule don't support any of the initiatives that make abortion less likely.

So folks who want more than superficial fixes get to watch the vicious circle game instead.
 

Yellowfin

New member
Case in point the Omaha idiot. The odds of his going off would have been greatly reduced if the US had a functional health care system.
Hmm, close, some of the right idea there. What is definitely needed is increased appreciation of and capacity within the healthcare infrastructure is more mental health care. There's nothing wrong with the US' health care in and of itself--it for darn sure doesn't need to be socialized. What is wrong with regards to mental health is that it's not regarded on equal plane with other health. If you've got a broken arm, migraines, wisdom teeth to be taken out, a kidney stone, etc. it is immediately recognized that one needs to seek the proper physician and obtain the right treatment for it and you have a clear idea as to what satisfactory results will be. About all most people tend to think is go get a pill and that's all there is to it. Too many people think of mental health like antis think...or attempt to think...oh, nevermind.
 

Buzzcook

New member
What is definitely needed is increased appreciation of and capacity within the healthcare infrastructure is more mental health care. There's nothing wrong with the US' health care in and of itself--it for darn sure doesn't need to be socialized.

You rightly point out a glaring systemic failure of our health care system then go on to say there's nothing wrong with US health care.
The "in and of itself" is simply rhetoric.

I for one do think America needs socialized medicine.

We disagree on that and that's just fine and dandy. That is the debate our nation should be having when some idiot goes postal instead of who got what gun where.
 

gmhippie

New member
They cant stop the crime so to "appear busy" they pass laws, I'm so busy passing laws I dont have time to stop and see if they really work, after all saving you from you is very time consuming.:eek:
 

sasquatch

New member
I for one do think America needs socialized medicine.

So, you think the same folks who provide such outstanding health care to our veterans should run the new "socialized" system for the entire country?

Or, should the folks who have run Medicare into the ground run the new "socialized" system?

Or, maybe the ones who have done such a fine job with Social Security should run it?

Or, maybe the ones who run the Post Office?

Or..........well.............you get my drift.

BALONEY on "socialized medicine" !!!
 

grey sky

New member
My .02

Good point Sasquatch. Gun control groups offten use the phrases, like "it's for the children" and "common sense regulation"
It is a slippery slope and with mental health it is often a judgment call ,of just how mental are you? So for the practicioner who fears litagation the judgement is always going to be CYA and a determination of not safe for gun ownership ever is always going to be the diagnosis. That means if itis a diagnosis in the DSM4 ( The tool for psychiatric diagnoses) one should be treated like a fellon ie no gun ownership. I believe if that kind of thought were also tied to the right to vote it would include anyone taking antidepesants or those with ADD ADHD PTSD ODD................
To clarify, if one is determined not to be a responsible enough to own a gun one is not responsible enough to vote or be a civil servant, join the army and other things if you were to think on it long enough.
 

Buzzcook

New member
sasquatch: SSI is one of the most successful government retirement disability benefit, and survivor benefit programs in the world.
If someone has told you other wise they're lying.

For 41 cents you can send a letter anywhere in the country. How much would the same letter cost with UPS?
I did the calculation here http://wwwapps.ups.com/calTimeCost and the lowest price was $15.04. That was for a letter sized package from Everett, WA. to Seattle, WA.

Medicare? http://www.pww.org/past-weeks-1999/Medicare success story.htm
The question is compared to what? There are many elderly Americans who would be dead right now without it.

I think America is a can do country. That we as a nation can take the positives from the worlds other industrialized nation's health care systems and make one of our own.

If you have a better solution, let's hear it.

By the way I hope you don't shoot at a socialized public range;)
 

The Tourist

Moderator
Buzzcook said:
I think America is a can do country. That we as a nation can take the positives from the worlds other industrialized nation's health care systems and make one of our own.

If you have a better solution, let's hear it.

Well, people can and do, in fact, get up and go to work every day in this country for the goods and sevices they require.

I don't know what you do for a living, but consider the issue if "the state" socialized your job, dictated who and where you could work and what you could charge.

Socialization sounds really good when someone else has to buy the groceries.
 

ConfuseUs

New member
It seems to me that Cho, the Omaha nut, and the Colorado church nut all sprang 1) irresponsible media coverage of similar crimes, and 2) from an unintended collusion between conservatives and liberals to reduce public safety. The conservatives don't want to spend the money on public mental health facilities and the liberals don't want to lock homicidal nuts away in them indefinitely. Thus the deeply disturbed and potentially dangerous walk freely among us until they take that last walk off the deep end.

I bet many people around these guys knew they were dangerously mentally ill and that they belonged in mental hospitals but there is no system in place to treat them and the law has made the treatment these guys need illegal anyway. Spending the money for mental hospitals for the truly crazy is not going to make us safer unless the dangerous headcases can be kept off the streets for extended periods of time, and vice versa.

Of course, from the viewpoint of all too many politicians, it's just easier to ban guns than allocate funds for nuthouses and change laws to make proper use of them.
 
Some of the pro gun control politicians are very sincere in their belief that more laws will reduce the level of crimes committed with firearms. They're not just pandering for votes.

The trouble is that they don't have even the dimmest awareness of what they don't know about firearms technology, and about crime in general.

Rep. Carolyn McCarthy (D-NY) is a good example of this type of sincere yet profoundly ignorant politician. She has pushed constantly for a new assault weapons ban that would ban rifles with "lethality enhancing features" like barrel shrouds, while finally having to admit recently that she has no idea of what a barrel shroud is.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ospNRk2uM3U
 

gc70

New member
SSI is one of the most successful government retirement disability benefit, and survivor benefit programs in the world.
If someone has told you other wise they're lying.

Yes, the US has a population base and growth rate that has sustained the world's most successful and longest-running ponzi scheme. And the politicians treat Social Security the same way they do gun control... they ignore the core issues, make meaningless changes in fringe areas, and loudly trumpet the claim that they have "fixed things."

The conservatives don't want to spend the money on public mental health facilities and the liberals don't want to lock homicidal nuts away in them indefinitely.
There's the answer in 25 words or less.
 

Yellowfin

New member
Mental health is not about being a prison alternative. It's about maintainence and problem solving, more like car care. You get an oil change every now and then, replace a few standard wear parts, and when a part's loose, something squeaks or grinds you fix it. It is for EVERYONE. The prison supplement mentality is what makes it a political issue instead of part of standard medicine. Simple stress, family and marital stuff, job related, and age transition stuff applies to everyone and all can benefit from relief from it. The extreme cases where it is like that are indeed cases where a lot needs to be corrected and institutionalization is needed, but the routine screening is what catches that sort of stuff before the person causes damage. Everyone should have some psych checkups about like a dentist checkup and regard it as such.
 

obxned

New member
Not much sense wasting time making laws that would impact the BGs - they don't obey the laws we already have and don't give a rodent's hindquarters about any new ones.
 

ConfuseUs

New member
Mental health is not about being a prison alternative. It's about maintainence and problem solving, more like car care. You get an oil change every now and then, replace a few standard wear parts, and when a part's loose, something squeaks or grinds you fix it.

The mental illnesses most likely to result in violent crimes just aren't treatable on an outpatient basis. Sure, many mentally ill people can be helped a great deal with outpatient treatment, but when you start dealing with the potential for violent behavior you have a different problem altogether. IIRC, Cho Sung Hui was court ordered to undergo counseling before VT. Since it was outpatient counseling he probably didn't go. If he was prescribed meds, there was nobody to make him take them. His mental problems were well known to counselors in his high school, his family probably knew about them, and his professors and fellow students at VT were well aware that Cho belonged in an institution with the nice people in white coveralls.

Sure, you can fix things on a car. OTOH, there's a reason why cars wind up in the junkyard: There's just too many things to fix, too many things that will break, and the effort clearly isn't worth it to keep that car on the road. Some cars are just lemons, and some people are simply nuts. Mental health also needs to be about problem prevention, which isn't happening right now. This is why mentally ill = homicidal maniac to the average American.
 

44 AMP

Staff
Are we all ticking timebombs?

Just waiting for the right combination of circumstances to allow us to detonate?

We may be. BUT, what combination of circumstances is going to set us off? And who has the right, and more importantly, the capability to accurately judge both the what, and the when?

There is no system devised by man that cannot be abused. There is nothing devised by man that is without errors or flaws. Which is the worse for us, to accept the fact that from time to time people run amok, and prepare ourselves to deal with it, or to surrender our lives to the control of other people (who are fallible) in the (false) hope that they will prevent or protect us from those who run amok?

No amount of mental health care as it currently exists can help an individual who does not wish to be helped. At best all it can do is control them, for as long as they remain in a situation where they can be physically controlled. Outpatient only works for those who actively wish to change, and does nothing for those who don't. Addicts, alcoholics, and other people with "issues" will do what they truly wish to do, no matter what, as long as they have the physical freedom to do it. Many find ways to overcome those addictions they are powerless to resist, and many do not. Even when drinking/drugging will kill them, some still drink/drug. Others find a method that allows them to escape the addiction. And only the willingness and desire to change allow any chance for sucessfull change.

The individual with mental problems who lives in society and truly wishes to get well tries. Those who don't go off their meds, and trouble results. Sometimes trouble results even while they are on meds. Sometimes it happens even when they have strong desire to be well. There are not any absolutes when it comes to the human mind, except one. And that one is that if nothing is attempted, nothing results.

As was mentioned, the drawback to allowing "mental health professionals" greater legal authority in our lives is allowing anyone greater control in our lives puts all of us at greater risk. The science of "mental health" is not a science in the same sense that geology is a science. There are no constants in the sense that there are mathmatical constants. What works for many does not work for all, what works for some is useless for others, and there is no way to predict or determine what may have a chance of being useful, save by trial and error on an individual basis. For example, anti-depressant drugs help a great many people, but there is a small percentage of people they send into paranoid delusions and homicidal rage. Drug makers and even doctors know this can happen, but they don't make a big public issue about it. It isn't a good selling point, and using the "greatest good for the greatest number" philosophy, keeping the drugs in use does more good than harm.
And when harm happens, the drug's role is often overlooked, or misinterpreted.

And giving mental health prfessionals more authority over our lives is a bad idea for other reasons as well. The chief one among them being that mental health professionals are people too. People with their own beliefs and agendas. Even were they saints or angels I would have my reservations about their abilities and judgement, and they are not. Remember it was only 50 some years ago that the recognised standards for mental health included classifying homosexuality as a mental disease, aberrant behavior that needed to be cured. Mental health professionals of that era knew that to be true. Imagine what they will know a few years from now!

Soviet communists legally classified dissidents as mentally ill. All nice and legal, their doctors and their courts all agreed. And as mentally ill, there was no legal objection one could make against "treatment". Is this the kind of authority you wish to give to our medical professionals, beyond what they already have?

Isn't the United States supposed to be a place where one can decide to march to the tune of a different drummer if one so wishes? As long as there is no harm to others, why should it matter? And notice I said harm, not threat of harm. Here is the ultimate slippery slope, the threat of harm being equated to mental illness. We already go too far (IMHO) using the threat of harm as justification for loss of rights and freedoms, but when it becomes accepted that any behavior with the potential to be a threat of harm (and there is very little that cannot be made into this) is considered mental illness, then our freedom is truly lost.

No matter what they may say, no matter what promises and assurances they give us, if we give them that power, it WILL BE ABUSED!!!! And there is absolutely NOTHING IN THE ENTIRE HISTORY OF MANKIND THAT HINTS OTHERWISE!!!
Remember what the road to hell is paved with! Remember the rule of unintended consequences!

Don't let us go there!
 
Top