Group size at 100 yds with IRON sights, from your rifle

[lonegunman]

Ok, this is a very specific question, for shooters of iron sighted combat style semi auto rifles only (lets say AR15 style, M1A, Garand, L1A1, etc):

With iron sights ONLY, at 100 yds, rested, what is your group size?

For purposes of this discussion, consider a group to be ALL shots fired, included any flyers (ie, if you shoot 5 shots and 3 are inside 2", and the other 2 are inside 4", lets call that a 4 inch group). Think about extreme spread here.

 

[Duke of Lawnchair]

...

lonegunman,

With my bushmaster 20hbar with a Rock River Arms two-stage trigger, and the following fodder my results have been:

Blackhills 52gr (blue box):
groups < 1.25"

Blackhills 68gr (blue box):
groups < 1.25"

Blackhills 75gr (blue box):
groups > 5"

Spanish Santa Barbara ss109:
groups ~ 3" all day


With my "franken-gun" 20hbar, DPMS CMP upper, bushmaster lower, jewell trigger, and the following fodder my results have been:

Blackhills 52gr (blue box):
groups < 1" with the smallest being 0.6"

Blackhills 68gr (blue box):
groups < 1"

Blackhills 75gr (blue box):
groups < 1" with the smallest being 0.45"

Spanish Santa Barbara ss109:
groups ~ 1" all day

With my Springfield Armory M1A "loaded" stainless, and a CA legal Springfield brake, my results have been:

Federal Gold Medal Match 168gr:
groups ~1.75"

Blackhills 168gr:
groups ~1.75"

South African brown-battle-packed 150gr:
1" < groups < 4"

British Radway Green 147gr ball:
2" < groups < 5"

Austrian 147gr ball:
2" < groups < 6"


Well, those have been my results ranging from "nice" to "***?!"

All groups were fired from a sand-bagged solid wooden bench, open-sights, and at 100yds for five shots. Yes, I do realize that some won't call a group a group unless it's 10+ shots.

BTW, I think that some rifled slugged shotguns could do better than my m1a

Jim

 

[Cliff]

Iron sights.... Yeahhhhhh.... <G>

lonegunman - As Duke's post points out, ammo quality can play a big part in how consistently, and tightly, one will be able to group their shots.

Sight radius and front post size also influence things.

In my case, shooting 3 round strings, (my normal for sighting in and the like), things break down as follows:

Springfield Armory "loaded" M1A, I've grouped at 0.75" using Hornady 168gr. AMAX match ammo. Using standard 147gr. milsurp fodder, it's usually 2-3".

M1 Garand using 149gr. milsurp - again, 2-3".

AR15 "shorty" using Federal redbox 55gr. - 4-5". The shorter sight radius and large front post on my AR (not to mention coarse trigger (coarse compared to the sweet two stage triggers on the M1 and M1A) tend to open things up a bit.

Being able to shoot tight groups is gratifying, but being able to hit a dinner plate sized object at that distance with the first shot, is also important. IMO

Cliff

 

[RomaRana]

I can shoot 9 ring with almost all ammo from prone(shooting sling) at 100 yards with my FAL and Ar.

 

[Art Eatman]

Somewhere around 1985-ish, I got some Czech-made '06 GI-type ammo from Atlanta Dicount Ammunition.

I tried some three-shot groups from my Garand, and didn't seem to have any problem in getting 2" at 200 yards off the benchrest.

Good ammo. I got 3/4" groups from Ol' Pet.

Art

 

[brandon_h3]

This is a good thread. Interesting answers.

 

[knutzke]

FMP G3 rifle:Record 13 mm@100m three shots group.
30 mm five shot groups all day long.I´m using hand
loaded ammo only.

 

[fastforty]

You guys can *see* 100 yards? Seriously, I must need to get my perscription checked, everything's pretty burry at that distance to expect better'n 6-7" even out of a sub-MOA barrel.

 

[knutzke]

Naturally good conditions are required,cloudy calm day,
special target and so on.But it´s possible and also great fun..

 

[Navy joe]

Don't carry calipers, but 5 shots usually touch rested or prone from my M-1A. prefer NRA 50ft pistol bulls for targets.

 

[BigG]

I see some potential gun writers in this thread - and I'm rolling up my pants before anybody else posts.

 

[swampyMO]

fastforty wrote:

"You guys can *see* 100 yards? Seriously, I must need to get my perscription checked, everything's pretty burry at that distance to expect better'n 6-7" even out of a sub-MOA barrel."s

Hey guy, you don't NEED to be able to see 100 yds. All you have to be able to "SEE" sharply is that front sight post. THAT is where your focus point HAS TO BE in order to shoot well with a post front irons.

You don't WANT to focus on the target. It's supposed to be a blurry black dot.

In fact, ol' fogey highpower shooters like me who need either longer arms or bi-focals in order to read a book pretty much have to get a special prescription in order to shoot the post front well. This is in order to bring our focus point BACK to the front sight post and OFF of the target.

My normal distance prescription is a -7.25 diopter (I'm VERY nearsighted). My "lower lens" bifocal for up close and reading is backed off 2.0 diopters and is at a -5.25 diopter.

The shooting lens I wear to let me focus on the front sight post is +.75 diopter from my normal distance prescription, making it a -6.50. With this lens I can bring my focus back to the post, where it should be, leaving the bull a fuzzy black dot, also just like it should be. When not looking through my sights, the +.75 from norm makes things I try to look at in the distance a little softer than what I'd want for, say driving, but is fine for walking around the range and such. I can still see fine with it.

In talking with other shooters, the range of diopter correction for shooting seems to be between about +.50 and +1.00 diopter. Even the highpower legend G. David Tubb, in his book, says he most often uses a +1.00 diopter shooting correction.

BTW, even as nearsighted as I am, I can get sub MOA 100 yd. 5 & 10 shot groups with my AR, and 1.5 MOA 8 shots from my Garand.

It don't matter WHAT your main prescription is.... as long as the glasses you wear when you shoot allow you to focus on the front sight, you can see well enough to shoot. If you ain't hitting the bull, the problem is not with your eyesight.

Swampy

 

[Navy joe]

Come on up and see there Big G, 100 yds is pretty short range for a rifle ya know, what's so hard to believe with quality ammo(Federal Gold Match) and NM sights on a really sweet weapon? I suppose its horse hockey that I hold 3" off-hand with my AR over 20 rds off-hand with crap russian ammo too. I mean I'm a lousy shot, but I'm not that bad.

 

[BigG]

Mas Ayoob shoots a good group, too, to hear him tell it...

I know there are people who can shoot to their weapon's potential, only not many. No offense, but most shooters (myself included) have good days and bad days and we tend to remember the good days better.

BTW, since when is a NM M1A a combat style semi auto?

 

[Mal H]

BigG - I learned long long ago never to say someone can't do something they tell me they can do no matter how ridiculous it may sound.

I know someone who can consistently hit golf balls at around 75 yards with his 1911. If he can do that, who is to say that someone can't use a rifle with its inherent accuracy and much longer sight radius to get a very good group at only 25 yards further? Agreed that the iron sights on that rifle must be of good quality not the kind where the front blade washes around in the wide gap of the rear sight.

 

[Poodleshooter]

I can't shoot much tighter than 6" with iron sights offhand. I usually tend to vertically string a lot, as I always have a hard time telling where the front sight post is in height relation to the 8.5"x11" targets that I commonly use @ 100yds. I know it's me as my AK and AR both shoot about the same in my hands, offhand @ 100yds, with the AK stringing just a little more vertically.

 

[Dr.Rob]

He said rested off a bench.

Off hand.. no way I could shoot 3 inch groups with an AK, however, sandbagged and set, watching my breath control and squeezing off 3 shot groups with federal premium 223 match ammo.. yeah its possible. Its not EASY but I can do it.

My old 03 can't get that kind of accuracy.. its more like a 5 inch "pattern" at 100 yards.

 

[BigG]

Mal, you are absolutely right and far be it from me to doubt anybody's assertions on TFL. I just can't do it and neither can anybody else I know.

4X or more Leupold and bench with sandbags, yes, field position and iron sights with rack grade rifle, um, no. My limits are 2" on my lucky day. YMMV

 

[Steve Smith]

I'm still a rookie HP shooter, but the last match I shot, I had 5 shots into the x ring, which is 1 MOA. That was a 100 yard reduced match, so that was 1". Yes, of course that's with open sights, and I was prone with sling.

 

[Johnny Guest]

The years DO take a toll - - -

About 12 years ago, I could consistently hold under two inches with my old SP-1 AR15, the standard factory sights, and Remington 55 gr SP ammo. I could get one inch often enough to raise my hopes, but 2" was more normal.

During same time frame, I could do slightly UNDER 2" with a match-tuned M1A and Lake Cities Match ammo.

Alas, during the past five years, my vision has gone downhill and I do well to hit a quart oil can at 100 yards with iron sights, and that only when the light is just right.

Oh, well - - -That's one reason scope sights are so popular, I guess.

Best,
Johnny