Indrid Cold
New member
What's considered good shooting when you're just using iron-sights? Is it normally measured at 100 yards like you would with a scoped rifle, or at a shorter distance?
"Good" shooting with irons.
- Thread starter Indrid Cold
- Start date
I'd say that anyone who can consistently make 5" groups at 100 yards with iron sights from all the standard positions is shooting very well. You could expand that to 8" and that would still be more than acceptable.
From a good rest, with good light, good sights, good eyes and a well-defined aiming point that is easily visible to the naked eye, iron sights should shoot just about as well as a scope.
From a good rest, with good light, good sights, good eyes and a well-defined aiming point that is easily visible to the naked eye, iron sights should shoot just about as well as a scope.
HighValleyRanch
New member
I've been wonderin that too!
So here's my question to that. many people are saying they are shooting less than 1 inch groups (100 yards) with scoped rifles.
At 100 yards can most people see clearly 1 inch?
So if you cannot see 1 inch at 100 yards, and your front bead is more like 4 MOA, how can one shoot 1 inch with iron sights. Is it all alignment and mental visualization?
Not saying it can't be done, just wondering how it works.
Goin to the range tomorrow, so will start with a big scope, then take it off and shoot with irons and then a red dot. We'll see.....
So here's my question to that. many people are saying they are shooting less than 1 inch groups (100 yards) with scoped rifles.
At 100 yards can most people see clearly 1 inch?
So if you cannot see 1 inch at 100 yards, and your front bead is more like 4 MOA, how can one shoot 1 inch with iron sights. Is it all alignment and mental visualization?
Not saying it can't be done, just wondering how it works.
Goin to the range tomorrow, so will start with a big scope, then take it off and shoot with irons and then a red dot. We'll see.....
The problem with open sights is not so much on the range, but under actual hunting conditions. I've known several people who couldn't hit a deer with open sights, but with a peep, couldn't miss.
Newby hunters tend to look at the front sight only and look right over the rear sight when trying to shoot game. It's probably the combination of nerves and poor visibility in the woods. Often it's hard enough to see deer, but when trying to align front and rear sights properly in poor light, then place them on a deer, or whatever, it just doesn't work for them.
I've installed Williams 5D receiver sights on several Winchester 94s and Marlin 336s and they made a big difference because it's more natural and faster to look through the peep and put the front sight on the animal.
We used to remove the aperture and just use the larger opening. My Marlin 39A Mountie was fantastic on squirrels that way. The receiver sight is mounted lower than a scope, so there's less deviation between bullet flight and line of site out to 50 yards. That contributes to good hits on small targets like red squirrels.
Picher
Picher
Newby hunters tend to look at the front sight only and look right over the rear sight when trying to shoot game. It's probably the combination of nerves and poor visibility in the woods. Often it's hard enough to see deer, but when trying to align front and rear sights properly in poor light, then place them on a deer, or whatever, it just doesn't work for them.
I've installed Williams 5D receiver sights on several Winchester 94s and Marlin 336s and they made a big difference because it's more natural and faster to look through the peep and put the front sight on the animal.
We used to remove the aperture and just use the larger opening. My Marlin 39A Mountie was fantastic on squirrels that way. The receiver sight is mounted lower than a scope, so there's less deviation between bullet flight and line of site out to 50 yards. That contributes to good hits on small targets like red squirrels.
Picher
Picher
With iron sights, yes one can get good shots. Look at the Marine rifle qual. So be I served my 8 and got out before the new system they just started with rapid fire burst drill in the 3-8 second range and the new higher point system of 250 compared to the 65 before.
They fire 200 300 and 500 yard iron sights with the AR in a variaty of positions, standing kneeling sitting and prone, and at the 200 and 300 they transistion from standing to kneeling rapid fires ect. True they use the sling for stabilization. But at 200 yards, in the sitting and kneeling out of the 5 rounds I would hit the 5" shot spotter 3 times each. At 500 yards, they use a 10" shot spotter, out of those 10 rounds I would put the same 3-4 rounds in that spotter.
As for seeing 500 yards. No, you do not even look at the target, just the front sight post, keep it centered in the rear appature, and keep that centered on the blurry target, control the breathing, control the trigger, and let the shot surprize you.
All that being said, I have never hunted (anything other than rabbits), but if I did I would want to use a scope.
They fire 200 300 and 500 yard iron sights with the AR in a variaty of positions, standing kneeling sitting and prone, and at the 200 and 300 they transistion from standing to kneeling rapid fires ect. True they use the sling for stabilization. But at 200 yards, in the sitting and kneeling out of the 5 rounds I would hit the 5" shot spotter 3 times each. At 500 yards, they use a 10" shot spotter, out of those 10 rounds I would put the same 3-4 rounds in that spotter.
As for seeing 500 yards. No, you do not even look at the target, just the front sight post, keep it centered in the rear appature, and keep that centered on the blurry target, control the breathing, control the trigger, and let the shot surprize you.
All that being said, I have never hunted (anything other than rabbits), but if I did I would want to use a scope.
FirstFreedom
Moderator
Assuming the rifle is very accurate...
What JohnKsa said. 4 or 5" is pretty darned good in my book, with irons, with good sights and good ambient light. Though some people with really good eyesight can do much better; as good as with a scoped rifle; that is, around 1". My eyesight has never been all that great - at least, that is my excuse for having never been able to shoot under 3" with irons.
What JohnKsa said. 4 or 5" is pretty darned good in my book, with irons, with good sights and good ambient light. Though some people with really good eyesight can do much better; as good as with a scoped rifle; that is, around 1". My eyesight has never been all that great - at least, that is my excuse for having never been able to shoot under 3" with irons.
If you're over 25, wear glasses and want to shoot targets better with open sights, try my old pistol shooter's trick of punching clean holes through a black target paster or electrical tape, then stick them on your shooting eye lens where you tend to look at your sights. It really sharpens the sights and target.
I did that in an inter-club match when shooting a borrowed Swede and won the 100 yard military bench match with 1 1/2" groups. Not bad for the first time shooting that rifle. As I remember, the only rifle mod allowed in that type of competion was a higher front sight to allow a 100 yard zero.
The guy had made paper-patched cartridges and apparently they shot pretty well.
Picher
I did that in an inter-club match when shooting a borrowed Swede and won the 100 yard military bench match with 1 1/2" groups. Not bad for the first time shooting that rifle. As I remember, the only rifle mod allowed in that type of competion was a higher front sight to allow a 100 yard zero.
The guy had made paper-patched cartridges and apparently they shot pretty well.
Picher
Old Time Hunter
New member
If using semi-buckhorn style rear sights, I would say 1/2" groups at 50 yards and 2" groups at 100 yards off the bench. Double that for off-hand. Personally I have had great success with the Ghost Ring made by XS Sight Sytems (old Ashley), tightens up the 100 yard group almost to the point of using those optical enhancers (scopes, anybody that thinks they need them for hunting, cheats) that cost $100s of dollars.
I've gone back and forth between iron sights and scopes on several of my rifles in order to find out what I really like to use for various purposes. I have settled on a fixed low-power scope on my bolt action .30-06, factory irons on my 336XLR in .30-30, and XS Ghost Ring sights on my shortened 336C in .30-30.
The ghost rings work well for me at ranges under 100 yards, more if I really take my time. These excel for quick sight alignment and offer good visibility in somewhat dim light.
I tried a low-power scope on my XLR but at 100-150 yards I wasn't getting groups better enough to outweigh the great handling characteristics of a non-scoped lever gun so I took the scope off. The factory irons are precise enough for accurate shots out to about 150 yards for me. Of course, a smaller target will make it more difficult with that bead front sight.
I have a CZ550FS in .30-06 with a Weaver fixed 2.5X scope installed. The scope offers classic looks and a nice sight picture. I can use this setup out to 200+ yards, and the rifle has iron sights as backup. I can shoot the irons just fine out to 100+ yards.
Try different options if you can, and decide what works best for you at various distances and for various purposes. Whatever you ultimately decide on, learning to shoot irons well is a worth-while thing to do. Optical sights definitely have their place and offer some very practical advantages, including better visibility in low light. I like having different rifles set up different ways to match differing requirements.
The ghost rings work well for me at ranges under 100 yards, more if I really take my time. These excel for quick sight alignment and offer good visibility in somewhat dim light.
I tried a low-power scope on my XLR but at 100-150 yards I wasn't getting groups better enough to outweigh the great handling characteristics of a non-scoped lever gun so I took the scope off. The factory irons are precise enough for accurate shots out to about 150 yards for me. Of course, a smaller target will make it more difficult with that bead front sight.
I have a CZ550FS in .30-06 with a Weaver fixed 2.5X scope installed. The scope offers classic looks and a nice sight picture. I can use this setup out to 200+ yards, and the rifle has iron sights as backup. I can shoot the irons just fine out to 100+ yards.
Try different options if you can, and decide what works best for you at various distances and for various purposes. Whatever you ultimately decide on, learning to shoot irons well is a worth-while thing to do. Optical sights definitely have their place and offer some very practical advantages, including better visibility in low light. I like having different rifles set up different ways to match differing requirements.
I'd say that the word 'good' is a relative term. Ask several shooters what is 'good' shooting and you're bound to get different answers. As you can see from the above responses a hunter holding minute-of-deer might think that's a 'good' shot, whereas a highpower shooter holding the 10-ring will think that is good.
Set your own personal benchmark for accuracy with a given rifle. Try not to compare your shooting skills to others. I used to beat myself up when I started shooting highpower because the regulars at our club are MASTERS and HIGH MASTERS. I kept wondering how a little SHARPSHOOTER like me can compare to that? If the best that you can do is hold the 8-ring, then so be it. Get out and practice, practice & practce and you will be soon be holding the 10-ring.
The key to good shooting is practice and consistency. In the end, it all boils down to the basics: good position, trigger control, sight alignment and breathing.
Set your own personal benchmark for accuracy with a given rifle. Try not to compare your shooting skills to others. I used to beat myself up when I started shooting highpower because the regulars at our club are MASTERS and HIGH MASTERS. I kept wondering how a little SHARPSHOOTER like me can compare to that? If the best that you can do is hold the 8-ring, then so be it. Get out and practice, practice & practce and you will be soon be holding the 10-ring.
The key to good shooting is practice and consistency. In the end, it all boils down to the basics: good position, trigger control, sight alignment and breathing.
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If the sights are aligned properly and if the front sight is kept aligned to the target the same for each shot then you can shoot very tight groups.
It's not how big the front sight is (within reason), it's how well you align the sight to the target.
The aiming point has to be big enough to be easily visible, obviously. Things work better if the aiming point and the front sight aren't TOO terribly different in apparent size from the shooter's perspective.
I was doing awesome the other day with the 9, but my 3 shots were horrible. Kept topping it.... 
A lot depends on the sight. My Mosin sights are MOE, my AR sights are MOA. I shoot both @ 100, Mosin holds about 6', AR holds about 2.5. I think they both can do better, I'm not perfect, but I'm happy with it.
A lot depends on the sight. My Mosin sights are MOE, my AR sights are MOA. I shoot both @ 100, Mosin holds about 6', AR holds about 2.5. I think they both can do better, I'm not perfect, but I'm happy with it.
I shot at 100yds for the first time last week (first time I didn't forget my glasses that is). From a bench I got one group of 5 around 2.5" from the irons that I was pretty happy with. From standing, I hit paper.
I never see anyone at any of the ranges I've been to shooting rifles standing or sitting or prone, only with a benchrest. Seems a bit lazy. I'd like to try more 3 position shooting although the range I went to the other day you can't shoot sitting or prone.
). From a bench I got one group of 5 around 2.5" from the irons that I was pretty happy with. From standing, I hit paper.I never see anyone at any of the ranges I've been to shooting rifles standing or sitting or prone, only with a benchrest. Seems a bit lazy. I'd like to try more 3 position shooting although the range I went to the other day you can't shoot sitting or prone.
I used a peep on my bows back when i was into archery,and liked them. In the process of rebuilding a 30/30 and will go with the peep again, these eyes just wont pick up on 3 levels of sighting anymore, so the peep makes good use in this situation. I also like the fact that you can pick up a target much faster with a peep than you can with a rear sight ahead of the reciever, i can anyway! I shoot better groups also and isnt that what it is all about...
Shawn Dodson
Moderator
I've shot iron sights all my life - I just don't care for scopes. I reckon this has to do with the hundreds of thousands of rounds of BBs I fired as a kid (I wore out BB guns). I'm 46 and my close vision started to deteriorate a few years ago, but my eyes haven't gotten bad enough to affect my ability to use iron sights yet.
With my AR15A2, 20" bbl, I can easily keep five out of five shots in the head of an IDPA target at 200 yds, when fired off a bench with a rucksack as a support. This rifle shoots a little less than 3 MOA. The standard front sight on my rifle is as wide as an IDPA target at 100 yds, and twice as wide at 200 yds.
My FN FAL, 20" bbl, has a wider front sight and I'm just a little less accurate with it at distance than my AR15A2.
I recently replaced the stock front sight (.070" wide) on my Bushmaster M4s with XS Sight Systems 24/7 tritium stripe front sight (.100" wide). Althought the carbines are meant for CQB I was disturbed at how much they affected my accuracy at distances. I'm torn as to whether or not I'm going to reinstall the stock front sight post.
With my AR15A2, 20" bbl, I can easily keep five out of five shots in the head of an IDPA target at 200 yds, when fired off a bench with a rucksack as a support. This rifle shoots a little less than 3 MOA. The standard front sight on my rifle is as wide as an IDPA target at 100 yds, and twice as wide at 200 yds.
My FN FAL, 20" bbl, has a wider front sight and I'm just a little less accurate with it at distance than my AR15A2.
I recently replaced the stock front sight (.070" wide) on my Bushmaster M4s with XS Sight Systems 24/7 tritium stripe front sight (.100" wide). Althought the carbines are meant for CQB I was disturbed at how much they affected my accuracy at distances. I'm torn as to whether or not I'm going to reinstall the stock front sight post.
+1 to that man,,, it is lazy,, and kind of sad.
Seeing stuff like that is why I started this old thread a while back...
Check the targets and the ranges in that one...
http://www.thefiringline.com/forums/showthread.php?t=228957
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Well, let'see. I can shoot a possible in offhand at 200 yds with my AR, that's 20 rounds into a 10" bull. That's with sights designed to hit a 20" wide man at 500 yds, standard military sights. When I shot smallbore match in college, I would pretty consistently clean the target at 50 ft aiming for a .210" X ring. Accurate with irons depends a lot on the degree of accuracy built into the sights. An Anschutz wth target sights set up with aperture and a globe front can shoot some very small groups. I had a friend who owned a 308 free rifle who could and did shoot sub-MOA groups.
Now don't get me wrong, your average Winchester or Marlin iron sights are probably not capable of that level of accuracy, but iron sights can and do turn out some very fine groups.
Now don't get me wrong, your average Winchester or Marlin iron sights are probably not capable of that level of accuracy, but iron sights can and do turn out some very fine groups.
armoredman
New member
Depends on the rifle, the ammo, the time of day, etc, like this one, shot at 100 yards from the bench.
And this one, with the Mosin 91/30, also 100 yards from the bench.
Old targets, I haven't been out to the rifle range in a while, and now live closer to one than ever before. Ican tell you the Enfield has given me MOA with one handload, and then the next trip it's minute of Nazi.
At least the AK is consistant - it can't hit anything past 50 yards.
And this one, with the Mosin 91/30, also 100 yards from the bench.
Old targets, I haven't been out to the rifle range in a while, and now live closer to one than ever before. Ican tell you the Enfield has given me MOA with one handload, and then the next trip it's minute of Nazi.
At least the AK is consistant - it can't hit anything past 50 yards.