I have a Smith M & P subcompact in .40 that is a nice little gun, but kicks a bit when firing defense loads. It’s fine with Winchester White Box but that’s an older design. I had thought Hornady Critical Defense would be good, but it seems to kick with some sharpness and muzzle flip. Nothing painful, but I am looking for a modern defense load that would help promote faster shooting. Anyone find a good milder load in .40?
Good lighter .40 defense load?
- Thread starter Mosin44az
- Start date
ligonierbill
New member
You already know what folks are going to say, don't you. Even in 9 mm, a subcompact is lively. About all you can do is pick a lower bullet weight. I went to 115s in my PF9. If I'm shooting 40s, it's from a G23 and personally have avoided anything bigger than 9 in pistols I can't wrap my whole hand around.
Hornady Critical Defense has a 165 grain projectile. Most .40 S&W shooters feel that 180 grain projectiles have a bit less perceived recoil than 165 grain or lighter projectiles.
What is your barrel length? Some JHP projectiles fail to expand on impact because they do not develop full potential muzzle velocity in a short barrel. My .40 pistols are all mid-sized but if your barrel length is 3.5" or less, you might consider trying Speer Gold Dot 180 grain Short Barrel.
What is your barrel length? Some JHP projectiles fail to expand on impact because they do not develop full potential muzzle velocity in a short barrel. My .40 pistols are all mid-sized but if your barrel length is 3.5" or less, you might consider trying Speer Gold Dot 180 grain Short Barrel.
A subcompact is lively, period. If you're finding felt recoil excessive, you need a different pistol. However, the least amount of recoil energy out of a 1.5 pound pistol is with a 165 at 1080 FPS. 9.3 ft-lbs.
A 3.5" Smith M&P Compact (there is no .40 S&W Subcompact listed by Smith) weighs about 1.5 lbs.
A 3.5" Smith M&P Compact (there is no .40 S&W Subcompact listed by Smith) weighs about 1.5 lbs.
It is a matter of conservation of momentum. Before firing a shot, the 'system' consisting of the pistol and the cartridge are at rest. Upon firing, momentum is imparted to the projectile and equal momentum is imparted to the pistol and spent cartridge case. That momentum must be absorbed by the shooter's hand and arm.
There are a lot of elements that go into perceived recoil beyond projectile momentum, such as pistol mass and the nature of the breech lockup and recoil spring mechanism. Perceived recoil is also affected by cartridge case pressure and how quickly that pressure peaks in the cartridge case. But for a given pistol firing standard pressure .40 S&W those other factors can reasonably be assumed to be equal.
Projectile momentum is calculated by the projectile mass in grains divided by 7000 times the muzzle velocity in feet per second. Momentum for the Hornady Critical Defense 165 grain load is 25.3 lb-f/sec.
Projectile momentum for the short barrel 180 grain Speer Gold Dot load I mentioned is 25.2 lb-f/sec. For the regular Speer Gold Dot 180 grain load the momentum is 24.6 lb-f/sec.
Projectile momentum for Federal Hydra Shok 165 grain is 22.3 lb-f/sec, and projectile momentum for Federal Hydra Shok 180 grain is 24 lb-f/sec.
The data from Luckygunner ballistic testing is a convenient source for the muzzle velocity of different handgun loads.
http://www.luckygunner.com/labs/self-defense-ammo-ballistic-tests/#40SW
There are a lot of elements that go into perceived recoil beyond projectile momentum, such as pistol mass and the nature of the breech lockup and recoil spring mechanism. Perceived recoil is also affected by cartridge case pressure and how quickly that pressure peaks in the cartridge case. But for a given pistol firing standard pressure .40 S&W those other factors can reasonably be assumed to be equal.
Projectile momentum is calculated by the projectile mass in grains divided by 7000 times the muzzle velocity in feet per second. Momentum for the Hornady Critical Defense 165 grain load is 25.3 lb-f/sec.
Projectile momentum for the short barrel 180 grain Speer Gold Dot load I mentioned is 25.2 lb-f/sec. For the regular Speer Gold Dot 180 grain load the momentum is 24.6 lb-f/sec.
Projectile momentum for Federal Hydra Shok 165 grain is 22.3 lb-f/sec, and projectile momentum for Federal Hydra Shok 180 grain is 24 lb-f/sec.
The data from Luckygunner ballistic testing is a convenient source for the muzzle velocity of different handgun loads.
http://www.luckygunner.com/labs/self-defense-ammo-ballistic-tests/#40SW
I have that gun and it can be forceful. I shoot it with the largest back strap to give me a bigger palm footprint.
It's the only piece I shoot that has a noticeably fluid recoil, almost like a slow motion slide action with range ammo.
It is as accurate as my G27.4 but I think less snappy. I posted some mods and mod reversals but it's a great shooter, no hiccups.
Not interested in shooting more than 100 or so rounds at a time with either, but the first 20 or so are fine, so it's fine for EDC.
It's the only piece I shoot that has a noticeably fluid recoil, almost like a slow motion slide action with range ammo.
It is as accurate as my G27.4 but I think less snappy. I posted some mods and mod reversals but it's a great shooter, no hiccups.
Not interested in shooting more than 100 or so rounds at a time with either, but the first 20 or so are fine, so it's fine for EDC.
Thanks all, and for the data pblanc especially.
Mine is the gen 1 M & P Compact, I think of it as a subcompact and in fact it’s about the same size as the XD and Glock subcompact guns. It’s a nice gun, easily carried, with just a bit too much recoil and flip for my taste, at least in .40.
I suspect a number of the 180 grain loads are designed to match the original .40 loading , which is fairly mild.
I have noticed some brands of guns I have owned handle recoil more to my liking than others. I think the XD series do well, better than Glock for instance. The Beretta Px4 Compact with the rotating barrel does Really well, and that could be a thought if I move away from the little M & P.
Mine is the gen 1 M & P Compact, I think of it as a subcompact and in fact it’s about the same size as the XD and Glock subcompact guns. It’s a nice gun, easily carried, with just a bit too much recoil and flip for my taste, at least in .40.
I suspect a number of the 180 grain loads are designed to match the original .40 loading , which is fairly mild.
I have noticed some brands of guns I have owned handle recoil more to my liking than others. I think the XD series do well, better than Glock for instance. The Beretta Px4 Compact with the rotating barrel does Really well, and that could be a thought if I move away from the little M & P.
TruthTellers
New member
Try Polycase or Ruger ARX. Same thing. Cabela's even has it on sale and free shipping with a $50 order.
http://www.cabelas.com/product/POLYCASE-RUGER-ARX-AMMO/2105678.uts
http://www.cabelas.com/product/POLYCASE-RUGER-ARX-AMMO/2105678.uts
Thanks Truth. I have some ARX and will retest. Didn’t notice much difference in my first testing except that my hoped for Hornady load was hotter. The .38 ARX I tried was wildly inaccurate in my LCR, almost like the barrel suddenly had no rifling, strange considering the brand....
TruthTellers
New member
I've only shot the Polycase/ARX in my LCP's. Accuracy was no different than normal ammo, but at 10 yards I was having trouble hitting the paper with whatever.
I have no idea what you'll get with recoil in the .40, but if it's less, it's less. I have no issues with shooting .40 in the Glock 27. Out to 15 or 20 yards, I'm not bad with it at all. I can't machine gun it like some do with a full size 9mm, but my goal is hitting the target and it does that well for the size it is.
silverbullet6oh
New member
Not in ALL cases, but.............. Lighter grain usually results in faster FPS. And heavier grain is opposite.
The Hornaday XTP JHP 180gr has a recorded 950 fps. Which I am sure they used a 4 inch minimum barrel to test. So it would be less in a shorter barrel.
But your going to give up Ft/Lb energy. But thats the world of handguns.
Of course what I mentioned for the Hornaday is only what paper provides. So real world shooting and end user feeling maybe completely different.
If you find something that will work for you that "feels" like it has better shootabilty, please post that.
Thanks - P
p.s. Paul Harrell is, imo, the best un-baised resource for firearms. He might be a source for you to watch on youtube regarding firearms. Just a thought.
The Hornaday XTP JHP 180gr has a recorded 950 fps. Which I am sure they used a 4 inch minimum barrel to test. So it would be less in a shorter barrel.
But your going to give up Ft/Lb energy. But thats the world of handguns.
Of course what I mentioned for the Hornaday is only what paper provides. So real world shooting and end user feeling maybe completely different.
If you find something that will work for you that "feels" like it has better shootabilty, please post that.
Thanks - P
p.s. Paul Harrell is, imo, the best un-baised resource for firearms. He might be a source for you to watch on youtube regarding firearms. Just a thought.
dontcatchmany
New member
I have 4 40s (Shield, G27, FNS40 and FNX40).
I have and shoot 165, 170 and 180 gr.
Most of my practice ammo is 180 gr. and just ordered 500 rds.
Defense ammo is generally Speer Gold Dot 180 GDHP but my Shield currently has short barrel in it. Actually did not realize that I had gotten the short barrel.
Also have 7 boxes of Critical Defense 165 gr FTX.
I actually like the 180 gr in all of the guns, but will take the best SD ammo (Speer GD or Critical Defense or Federal HST) I can find at the best price. Speer tends to take the lead in all the calibers I own.
Also just got a box of Underwood 180 gr bonded JHP which is supposed to be 1100 fps. Looking forward to trying it out.
LOL....If I start thinking that any of them have a bit of recoil, I just pull out my 44 mag with 240+ gr ammo. That allows me to "appreciate" recoil.
I have and shoot 165, 170 and 180 gr.
Most of my practice ammo is 180 gr. and just ordered 500 rds.
Defense ammo is generally Speer Gold Dot 180 GDHP but my Shield currently has short barrel in it. Actually did not realize that I had gotten the short barrel.
Also have 7 boxes of Critical Defense 165 gr FTX.
I actually like the 180 gr in all of the guns, but will take the best SD ammo (Speer GD or Critical Defense or Federal HST) I can find at the best price. Speer tends to take the lead in all the calibers I own.
Also just got a box of Underwood 180 gr bonded JHP which is supposed to be 1100 fps. Looking forward to trying it out.
LOL....If I start thinking that any of them have a bit of recoil, I just pull out my 44 mag with 240+ gr ammo. That allows me to "appreciate" recoil.
lee n. field
New member
"The g00gle" tells me that is a 24.9 oz gun.
I shoot and sometimes carry a Springfield XD subcompact in .40. 26oz empty, 32 loaded with the short magazine. I truly don't have a problem with it. Does the extra 1.1 oz make that much difference?
For social purposes ammo I'm slowly working through a large stash of Winchester Silvertip I bought cheap in the early 2000s. For practice and plinking 175 grain cast lead handloads that are probably on the mild side.
I think Springfield’s XDs handle recoil better than other brands,certainly better than Glock. Maybe they have a better recoil spring design. Beretta Px4 with the rotating barrel also good. But retest showed me, like I said, that M & P Compact is generally fine. Hornady CD just a bit lively for my taste.