goint to shoot at MRS cousins muzzleloader shoot... not really shot them much...

[Magnum Wheel Man]

so... I have a modern in line ( which is not legal for this "competition" ) & we have 3 "more traditional" rifles 2 of which we inherited from MRS dad, & one, a 32 caliber flint lock ( with an atomic frizzen ) I purchased a couple shortages ago, when you couldn't get primers ( in protest )... I'm sure the frizzen is not kosher for the shoot, but since it would be MRS 1st time, I'm hoping they'll allow her to shoot it, until I can get replacement parts to get her back to original...

FIL had a 50 caliber & a 54 caliber... I'm planning on shooting the 50, since I have enough round balls here to shoot the shoot... besides it has a tang sight, which he had regulated to the different distances...

looking for suggestions here...

targets are shot in 5 shot groups, at 50, 100, & 200 yards ( often times there aren't many holes in the 4' X 4' target backer at 200 yards ) I'm hoping I can do alright the balls are Hornady, & they are completely round, no sprue, so should fly pretty true for a round ball... I've not really been in a hurry when I've shot my inline, so there will be added "stress"...

so what is the best or proper method for swabbing the fouling between shots? every other shot, or ??? what to use for swabbing, to clean or soften the fouling??? if I'm rushing, how do I ensure there is no glowing embers in the breach, before I pour powder in the barrel? I have some vials to premeasure powder... FIL had some ball boards made up ( boards with proper sized holes, so lubed patches & balls can be pressed in, so the starter can press them into the bore... it's not a timed event, but one hates to hold up the other shooters... any other tools or products I should be looking at???

I assume I'll do a pretty good clean up between stages, but I've not shot 15 rounds in an afternoon before...

BTW... I'm using Goex black powder... I have 2X & 3X... figured I'd use 2X in the chambers & have to use the 3X for the flash pan on the Flintlock ( I'd expect 4x would be better??? ) ( & at this point maybe I have it wrong, & the bigger number is coarser... I'm thinking the bigger numbers are finer??? )

 

[Ifishsum]

What I do with my .50 and .54s percussions is pre-moisten dry patches in bore cleaner (moose milk, T/C no 13 or similar) and use those for the shoot. Since you'll likely be loading and shooting almost immediately there shouldn't be any issue with fouling the powder charge, and seating each ball will usually keep the barrel clean enough to shoot accurately for 20+ shots, at least it does for me. I don't think patched ball is as picky with barrel cleanliness as sabots or bore size lead slugs. When I notice it gets more difficult to seat the ball all the way down, I swab with one patch thoroughly moistened with my bore cleaner of choice, paying a little extra attention to the breech end, following with a dry patch...most of the fouling stays pretty soft due to the moistened (instead of greased) patches. I have placed and won several matches at my club firing all 25 shots in that manner, without a cleaning swab between the first and last round. If your bore is not smooth and free of pitting it might not work as well though.

I have never had a glowing ember in the breech ignite the following charge, nor really worried much about it but I don't put my face directly over the muzzle, and I leave the hammer down after firing to seal the breech more or less. Always charge from a measure of course, and not from the can or flask. As there is no projectile at that point, if it were to ignite it should only flare up - but again I've never had nor seen this actually occur. Goex ignites very easily and completely in my experience, especially with the smaller charges typically used with PRB shooting.

For the flinter, a pinch of 4f (bigger number = finer grain) would be best for priming the pan if you can get some. 3f will probably work but likely with a noticeably slower ignition time, which can make it more difficult to shoot accurately. You won't need much for 15 shots, maybe someone will share? I've found that most buckskinners are very helpful and generous with new shooters.

I haven't owned a rifle smaller than .50, but I'd think that 3F would be better for main charge in the squirrel gun. Someone correct me if I'm wrong...

 

[Magnum Wheel Man]

Thanks for the reply... I have a small amount ( probably 20 years old now ) of one of the "regulars" home made "moose milk" he's long gone, so no chance to ask him about the recipe no idea if it goes bad, or if it's still good to go with a vigilant shaking??? I think that is all my FIL used, so I'll need to find a replacement for the wet patches... suggestions would be great...

I have some shotgun swabs that I usually soak down with WD-40 to insure all the water is out after wet washing... but noticed there is a "jag" with two hooked pointed wires on it, in the muzzle loader stuff from FIL... I assume this is for swabbing???

is there a more modern / better tool for the job of "mopping" between shots???

 

[DD4lifeusmc]

Well I would pre lube the patches with your favorite lube and use the ball board. Less fumbling at the line.
4f is finer than 3f and normally used in the pan.
3f is finer than 2f normally in revolvers and rifles 45 cal and under.
but that is not a hard and fast rule. Just normally
2f is the coarsest of the three. Normally used in rifles 50 cal and larger.

Guessing the one you will be shooting is a percussion 50.
Embers.
Blow through the nipple and or the barrel before reloading. or using the alcohol to swab.

Best thing at the range to swab with is plain rubbing alcohol. it softens and cleans quickly, evaporates fast, and if you do it right no residue left behind.
Do NOT use a bore brush unless absolutely necessary. If you do, use the correct one for your rifle and NO patch.
Even better is to use 1 size smaller brush to insure you don't get it stuck.
Be careful not to push it down into the chamber. Most chambers are smaller than the bore, and easy to get brush stuck there.
When done swabbing, blow through nipple, make sure channel is clear.

If you have a cleanout screw, have right sized screw driver, preferably magnetized. and a nipple pick or pipe cleaner, in case flash channel does get clogged.

the two hooked wires jag is a patch puller if one should get stuck in the barrel during cleaning.
Traditional muzzle loading jags are a brass button witha series of ridges around it.
Sometimes it works great, but other times when in a hurry patches will slip off and stay in the barrel. Thus the "worm" ( 2 wire hook).
I'd use a slotted tip jag with the right size patch. Fluffy soft cotton flannel
works good. absorbent, just stiff enough to stay out against the barrel and tough enough it doesn't just fall apart.
I cut mine from an old flannel shirt
you should be good to go.

 

[Magnum Wheel Man]

cool... thanks... yes I put some of the small ground down "nail" FIL had in his stuff, along with the small screw drivers & Allen wrenches, & added a pack of pipe cleaners... I have a couple bottles of 90% Rubbing alcohol I could put in with my stuff...

there was a small bottle of ammonia in his gear, that I did not put in my stuff ( being a big reloader, I don't even like having that stuff in the same room as my brass cases ) does it have a place in the black powder box???

 

[DD4lifeusmc]

ammonia

No need for it that I know of.
Been using the rubbing alcohol for 35+ years. All my guns are nice and clean.
Unless there is an allen head screw on the gun someplace, shouldn't need the allen wrenches.
Some sights have them, but that's about it.

 

[Flintlock53]

Moose Milk recipe- in an empty gallon jug-
1 cup water soluble cutting oil- like used in lathes or bandsaws
1 cup 409 cleaner( some substitute Murphys Soap for the 409)
1 cup Ammonia
Fill the remainder of the jug with water. Shake each use. I put some in small bottle used for contact lenses. I wet some patches or patching when shooting strings of 5 or 10 rounds for target shooting. I use these to load each round ball and then after all rounds for that match are on target I clean barrel with wet and dry patches.
I have used this for approx. 40 years and never had any problems with fouling powder if you don't over do it.

Mike

 

[Magnum Wheel Man]

awesome... thanks...

actually it may not be stock, but the 50 has an allen screw in place of what was likely a straight screw for the clean out

 

[mehavey]

Swabbing between shots:

SHOOTING:
I recommend moistening a cleaning patch in your mouth to dampness (not wetness). Down the bore and back up twice.

Don't rush (no one else will be).

Unless you already have [shooting] patches cutout/pre-lubed, just use pillow ticking, spit-dampened, and cut off flush at the muzzle w/ a knife.

I'd remember/take a soft hammer to start the ball and a short-starter to get it further down before using a ramrod.

4Fg would be best for the pan, but 3Fg will do OK

CLEANING: That's a whole`nother Brittanica volume.

 

[Magnum Wheel Man]

I really appreciate all the info offered up here... as this is a family / friend event, most think I'm some sort of "expert" & while I don't like the term much, I might qualify in loading, or shooting cartridge guns... & while I have a good mental concept, I just have very little actual experience shooting the muzzle loaders more than a couple a shots at a time... in fact, I haven't even got my "in line" out deer hunting yet, even though I've owned it 5-6 years & it's been sighted in a couple times

I'll be OK, if I miss every target, as long as I don't do something unsafe or too stoopid looking

I would be nice if I won, & could blame it on beginner's luck though... or better yet, if I could make that 32 jump through hoops & MRS could win... she's a capable shot, & the last time I shot the gun, I put 3 balls almost touching at 50 yards... although that was with too thick a patches, that required too much force putting them down to the camber... I used up those balls for powder puff 32 S&W cartridges, but I just bought some more for the shoot, & a box one size smaller to try

BTW... MRS dad was all about using old t-shirts or other cotton shirts or denim for rags & patches

BTW #2... if I can catch a day this weekend, I'll get both rifles out to my range & get them at least reasonably close to sighted in at those ranges... the following weekend is the shoot

 

[Magnum Wheel Man]

my 2 diameters of 32 round balls should be here tomorrow... then I should be in good shape to get them on paper sometime this weekend...

they always have a pistol match as well... even though I don't shoot anything muzzle loader in handgun, I'm thinking I better stuff some black into a few cartridges of 38 Long Colt ( for my cartridge converted 51 Navies ) or 45 Walker ( for my cartridge converted Colt Walker )... for a side distraction... I'm thinking the Walker, just because the 460 S&W cases used will be more impressive, than the smaller 38 Long Colt... unfortunately the Walker is not cosmetically finished... the pair of 51 Navies are... anyway I'll figure something out after I get the rifles dialed in...

I'm hoping the couple of vials of premeasured powder would have been for the 50 cal rifle, so I can put it back in a measure & match what load my FIL was using, that will make the premarked tang sight much more usable

 

[swathdiver]

Magnum Wheel Man, you are an excellent candidate for Dutch Shoultz's "The System". It may be too late to get it before this shoot, but you'll surely do better next time having read, learned and applied it.

If you wipe between shots, there's no more chance for burning embers.

Consider leaving the sixguns at home and focusing on the rifle and fellowship and save them for another day.

 

[Magnum Wheel Man]

This "event" is actually Friday night, all day Saturday, & Sunday till noon with awards at lunch on Sunday delays can happen with the weather... this year will likely be a very scant showing of shooters as 2 of the families have major health issues going on... so I wouldn't pull out the revolvers unless there was extra time or ???

I'll have to do a search for "the system"

 

[Magnum Wheel Man]

cleaned up & shot both the 32 Flintlock, & the 50 caliber percussion guns yesterday... even had MRS load & shoot the flintlock a few times...

started off by myself, & with the 32... I had a screw on wad cleaner that I thought I had in the 32... thought I'd season the barrel before firing... hmmm guess I had that in the 50... stuck it 1/2 way down, & pulled the wire & wad out of the threaded base... I unscrewed the flash hole orifice, & charge the gun several times using the flash pan charging tool, before I got enough powder in the gun to fire the wad out... so after that, I thought I better run a patch down the barrel at least... I don't have a 32 caliber jag... of course I lost the patch down the barrel, & the lost patch pulling tool is too big to fit the 32 caliber barrel... so I had to blow it out, using the same method as the wad...

next I decided to use a nylon bristle 30 caliber brush, & that seemed to work... I'd soak it down with moose milk, & that's what I used the rest of the day ( 1st thing this morning, I ordered all the tools I'd need for the 32 from Track Of The Wolf ) they should be here in time for the shoot...

I used Hornady .310" lead balls & patches from the 50 ( yep, they were too big, but I made them work ) 30 measured grains of FFG under the ball, & the flash pan charging tool loaded with FFFG resulted in only 2 misfires out of about 10 rounds with the Atomic Frizzen still on the gun... I wasn't overly happy with the accuracy, but at 50 yards I was shooting about a 6" - 5 shot group... probably not good enough to win, but not bad enough to be embarrassed...

next I pulled out the 50... I was using Hornady round balls, & measured on of the premeasured powder tubes left over from MRS dad ( 16-17 years ago ) looks like 70 grains of FFG... using the tang sight where it was, I missed the target on the 1st shot... looked at the premade marks, & figured that must be for a longer distance... I readjusted the sight, & hit the target on the 2nd shot... thinking I may back the charge down to 65 grains, as I'm bruised today... ( got to remember to move that curved brass plate down on my arm, not in the pocket of my shoulder )... BTW... all, shot were fired off sand bags off my bench...

I noticed the longer ranges allow the use of bullet of choice now... I traded for some Minnie balls ( turns out they are 50 caliber ) I didn't have time to play with them yesterday... any ideas how they'll shoot compared to round balls, charge for charge???

anyway... I think with the 32 caliber tools I have coming, we should at least be able to play, safely, & hopefully not get embarrassed too much...

an suggestions would be great, & an info on shooting the Minnie balls???

 

[mehavey]

"... traded for some Minnie balls ( turns out they are 50 caliber )...."

What twist rate is your 50? (If it was designed as a slow-twist/patched-ball rifle, that Minnie's not going to like that slow twist.)

 

[Magnum Wheel Man]

no idea off the top of my head... was a rifle inherited from FIL... I don't think he shot Minnie balls so it may not stabilize them??? however, they really aren't much "longer" than a round ball, & being hollow, may actually be lighter than the round balls??? I don't think over the years, that the shoot allowed anything but round balls, back when FIL was shooting... perhaps the quest for better groups at distance caused them to change???

I looked over the invite... didn't notice on the back of one page listed the competitions... 25 meters standing, 50 meters sitting or standing, 100 meters off the portable bench... there are some other shorter distance specialty matches... round balls to be used for everything but any bullet acceptable for both the 50 & 100 meters...

I probably better go with what I've tried so far, & try to get a little more ready for next year, a little earlier than I started this year

Percussion caps... BTW... everything I have, came from MRS dad, & he's been gone for 16-17 years... I have enough for a couple of these shoots yet, but my regular smokeless source web sites have been out of caps for as long as I've been looking... I didn't look at Track of the Wolf, as I wanted to hurry my order for necessities... are caps tough to get everywhere right now, or am I just not looking in the right places ???

 

[mehavey]

Twist rate:

• Run a tight fitting patch on a cleaning rod [w/ free-rotating handle] down the barrel.
• Put a piece of scotch tape around the rod at the muzzle with a loose end pointing "up"
• Pull the rod out slowly until the tape end revolves 90° and measure how much of the rod you pulled out.
• Convert to twist rate.

EXAMPLE:
Rod travels 12" to rotate 90°
360/90 x 12" = 1 full turn in 48" (1:48)

.

 

[Magnum Wheel Man]

Appreciate all the comments... things went well... I took 2nd over all out of 7 shooters & didn't have any issues with either rifle... MRS shot OK, but not great... but she was the only one shooting a flint lock, so she was at a little disadvantage...

shot over 50 rounds through each rifle...

made up a new batch of "milk" it seemed to work well I put a damp patch down the barrel each shot, so the shot should be the same each time... I actually used Windex with ammonia & some new high tech water soluble cutting oil from my buddies fabrication shop, along with some Murphy's oil soap... gave the "milk" a bluish tint & reflected rainbow colors from the milk... so I called my concoction " Big Mike's Funky Monkee Milk"... it seemed to do everything a good "milk" should do

I tried some reduced loads at 25 meters... the 50 seemed to work well with them... the 32 didn't seem to work as well... but those were shot from the standing position, & we shot those last on the 2nd day, in case it rained, there was a shed by that range... the longer distances were shot from the pasture, with no cover, for either the rain, or in our case this year, the sun... MRS was pretty tired by then, so it may have been her shooting, rather than the reduced loads???

BTW... the guy that took 1st over all, has his name on the traveling trophy about 50% of the time, over the last 20 years... so he's a great shooter, I don't have to feel bad about losing to him... I knew our 50 meter scores were pretty close ( my best of the competition ) but he had me beat by 1.5" ( they measure each shot from the center of the target, & add those numbers together... smallest agglomerate number wins... ) he won each category, so it was clear he was the winner over all... but I hoped I had him beat on the 50... but no such luck...

BTW... he used his great shooting skill & a little luck to win the poker shoot... each shooter was dealt one card up, & one card down, that only you could see until the end... then the rest of the deck was stapled to a target backer, & you shot the cards you wanted, from 25 meters, to make the best poker hand... I thought I had it with 2 pair of Kings & Jacks... but when he flipped his down card over to reveal that he had a 3rd seven to go with his 2 pair of 10's & 7's for a full house... he won the side bets...

over all it was fun... turned out to be pretty hot most of the time we were shooting, & a pretty late night on Saturday... didn't get home till after midnight, since we had supper after we got done... then had to turn around & be back down there ( about 1/2 hour drive ) 1st thing Sunday morning...

now I have to get the guns cleaned up today... sprayed them down with WD-40 for the night & will clean them up after work...