Getting a Concealed-Weapons Permit in Florida is a Joke!

[allenomics]

If we don't insist on reasonable testing for CWP, we may face a backlash that could restrict our gun right.

Florida's process is a complete and total joke (IMO) and the NRA should advocate reasonable changes in the law and not blindly endorsing the status quo.

The editorial below is very reasonable and on target, IMO.
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"Orlando Sentinel" EDITORIAL

Our position: Florida's standards for concealed-weapons permit are dangerous
May 1, 2008

Would you go sky diving without extensive parachute training? Would you go scuba diving if you didn't know what to do if your tank runs out of air? Would anyone try jumping on a black-diamond run in Colorado without first hitting the bunny slopes?

Trying any of this without proper training is not only reckless, it borders on lunacy. So why are some half-million people being allowed to get a concealed-weapons license in Florida without having to show some reasonable proficiency in handling a weapon?

And by that, we don't mean the ability to fire a toy gun only once -- hitting the target not required -- during a two-hour class.

Those have been just some of the skimpy qualifications in play in this state. A Wednesday report in the Sentinel focused on the weak guidelines to get a concealed-weapons permit. And this comes at a time when safety has become even more of a concern: Starting July 1, businesses won't be allowed to ban people from taking concealed weapons to work, as long as the gun remains locked in their car.

It's not as if the concealed-weapons system is perfect to begin with. A 2006 newspaper report found more than 1,400 people who pleaded guilty or no contest to felonies had qualified for a concealed-gun permit because of a loophole in the law or bureaucratic errors -- including 216 people with outstanding warrants.

Florida's "standards" are a joke. Look no further than Texas as a comparison. Applicants there have to shoot 50 bullets at targets up to 15 yards away and score at least 70 percent, by getting 175 out of 250 points for marksmanship. In Florida, all you have to do is shoot one bullet. And you don't have to hit a thing.

In Texas, you must pass a shooting test every four years to renew. In Florida, you get a permit for five years, and no testing is required. At least eight states require that an applicant hit a bull's-eye repeatedly before passing the course.

Florida's system is so flawed that even gun-rights advocates such as the National Rifle Association have complained. And 15 states, including South Carolina, refuse to recognize Florida's concealed-weapons permit.

The Legislature needs to step in during next year's session and toughen the standards. If not, imagine the backlash after someone who is poorly trained gets killed trying to defend himself or herself in a supermarket parking lot or movie theater.

We don't expect the state to spit out Rambo clones. But people need to be reasonably proficient. They need to know how to load and unload a gun. They need knowledge of state gun laws. And the training needs to involve something more practical than a toy gun.

If a half-million people are going to have a concealed-weapons permit, they had better know what they're doing when they pull the trigger.

 

[allenomics]

Here's one of the "Orlando Sentinel" stories that could lead reasonable people to demand changes in the CWP law.

To some extend, the NRA is trying to improve elements of the CWP class, but IMO it's not enough.

I think whas is of concern is Marion Hammer's view, summed up from her comments to a reporter...

She finds nothing wrong with not requiring concealed-weapon permit holders to demonstrate a minimum level of shooting ability.

We've got to do better and insist on better training before it is legislated, IMO.

I am quite familiar with the range that is the subject of this story. It offers substantially better training than what is actually required by law.

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"Orlando Sentinel" - April 30, 2008

Some of the 500,000 people holding concealed-weapons permits in Florida qualified by using toy guns.

Recent complaints to state officials pointed out that almost anyone who wants to carry a handgun to the movies, mall or church can do so. The shortcomings they cited include training that allows firing bullets without gunpowder, and passing students for merely pulling the trigger once or twice without ever loading or unloading a handgun.

Quickie permit classes had become so common, the National Rifle Association threatened this month to fire any NRA-certified instructor who didn't use real guns to teach students in Florida.

Though carrying a concealed weapon requires a state permit, gun owners need only take a gun-safety course and show they know how to safely fire a real bullet. That's not the case in at least eight states -- where applicants must be able to hit a bulls-eye repeatedly.

"Unlike Texas, we do not have to have so many rounds at 10 feet or so many rounds at 15 feet. Florida just doesn't have that," said Buddy Bevis, director of licensing for the state Department of Agriculture and Consumer Services. The concealed-weapon statute "just says you have to be able to fire and handle a firearm safely," he said. "It doesn't say if it takes one [shot] or 100."

Shoddy training became an issue this month, more than a year after a retired military officer first complained to Gov. Charlie Crist about classes at gun shows.

"You can only train a corpse in 3 hours," Col. James K. Otto Sr., an NRA instructor from North Florida, wrote to the governor. "Our NRA certified instructors take 3 days to a week to make sure their students not only know the law but also know how to handle firearms and ammunition safely with at least a half day firing at a local range."

The letter started a sputtering chain reaction after landing on Bevis' desk with the added detail that some students at these classes trained with toy guns. Bevis called the voice of the NRA in Florida to complain.

"I did call Marion Hammer and say, 'I don't know what you've got going on down there, but you better tighten it up,' " Bevis said in a telephone interview. "And that's it."

Hammer, a former NRA president and one of the state's most powerful lobbyists, alerted NRA national headquarters. Within days, every NRA-certified instructor in Florida was warned they would lose their credentials for not using real guns with real bullets in class.

"Specifically, Air Soft or other air-driven guns are not acceptable," stated the April 14 memo. "Florida law requires that you maintain records certifying that you 'observed the student safely handle and discharge the firearm.' "

Air Soft guns are plastic replicas of firearms, which cost as little as $5 to more than $300. Many are sold as toys equipped with orange muzzles to distinguish them from real guns.

Hammer said the NRA issued the warning to make sure every class it certifies complies with state law. She finds nothing wrong with not requiring concealed-weapon permit holders to demonstrate a minimum level of shooting ability.

"In the 21 years that this program has been in effect, I know of no incident or accident that occurred as a result of lack of training," Hammer said by phone from Tallahassee.

The law "was never intended to make target shooters out of people. It was never intended to make street cops out of them," she said. "This is merely to show that individuals know how to load, unload and safely use a firearm for lawful self-defense."

Florida permit holders can carry their concealed weapons in 32 other states. Fifteen other states do not grant such reciprocity. One of them, South Carolina, cites Florida's low standards as the reason.

The Brady Campaign to Prevent Gun Violence advocates rigorous testing of shooting ability, knowledge of state laws and giving law enforcement discretion over who should be allowed to carry a hidden handgun.

"In Florida, where you're permitting them to legally carry a loaded, hidden handgun in a crowded situation where people may be running all over the place and then you're expecting them with no training to hit their mark -- that's crazy," said Brian Malte, the group's director of state legislation and politics. "Law-enforcement officers . . . miss their mark 80 percent of the time even after all the training they get."

Tighter restrictions on toy guns still don't mean all applicants must show they know how to shoot a pistol.

Concealed-weapon permits are available to graduates of classes taught by state-certified instructors and hunter-safety courses as well as NRA-certified classes. Graduates of the state's 12-hour hunter-safety course fire a .22-caliber rifle, a 20-gauge shotgun and a bow and arrow, but not a pistol, according to the Fish and Wildlife Conservation Commission.

Many Central Florida gun-shop owners are critical of quickie permit classes.

"If somebody was to cold call and say, 'Hey, I've never fired a gun before and I want to take your concealed-weapon class,' we will not allow them to sign up for the class," said John Ritz, manager of East Orange Shooting Sports in Winter Park. "It's not an introduction-to-shooting class. It's not a brand-new, basic beginner's class. We have those classes, and we do those classes several times a week."

Ritz estimated that about 1 percent of permit holders actually carry their guns daily. Those tend to be shooting enthusiasts, who fire at least 50 bullets in practice each month. Perhaps 25 percent of his students occasionally go armed and the rest almost never do, he said.

Soon, gun owners in Florida will be allowed to take their weapons to work.. Floridians already had the right to keep a loaded handgun in their vehicles. The new law, which takes effect July 1, lets gun owners park on company property and leave a handgun locked in the trunk.

Few safe places remain in Central Florida's urban sprawl for shooters to practice.

Orange County -- home to more than 23,000 concealed-weapon permit holders and 70 gun dealers -- has five public shooting ranges and one private gun club, records show.

Shoot Straight in Apopka, one of Florida's busiest gun stores, allows inexperienced shooters to take its permit classes. But store manager Larry Anderson said instructors stress that anyone carrying a firearm in public should be so skilled that its use is second nature.

"People need to practice more, there's no doubt about that," he said. "You need to be so proficient with that gun, you're comfortable

 

[HKuser]

No, we have to insist on giving the license to all non-criminals. If you misuse it, you go to jail, just like now. It's NEVER been a problem. This is a phony issue.

 

[wayneinFL]

There's a thread on this in the general discussion forum already.

For what it's worth, the program's been in place with the same lack of restrictions since (1987?). If it hasn't become a problem in over twenty years when will it become a problem?

Sure, public opinion is going to sway in the direction of more training, but the public thinks we should be as good as the cops, and the public thinks the cops can put a smiley face on a target at fifty yards, because the public saw Mel Gibson do it on t.v. The ignorant will never be satisfied with the training requirement, no matter how stringent you make it.

 

[DonR101395]

Yep, I agree. I think it's a joke that we are required to have a permit at all in any state.


Are you related to a CEO/hunter/diver from Texas?

 

[toybox99615]

consider this

a person can walk into a shop and purchase a handgun with no CCW required. That same person can take that pistol any lawful place and fire it all day long with no regulated competency test. That same person decides they to acquire a CCW permit. The permit only grant them the right to conceal the same pistol. The permit is not a competency test for the purpose of owning a pistol.

When you start to establish a competency level for a CCW permit you are allowing more restrictions on one class of owners than you are requiring on other classes of owners. CCW permits have never been seen as a measure of competency. When competency levels get attached to a CCW permit you open the possability of someone establishing a criteria that is not applicable to everyone.

We hear problems all across the country where some agency finds every possible reason to deny CCW permits. Add the ability to require some magical score for the applicant on a target chosen by an agency and you can see the potential to eliminate more and more citizen the right to carry. I can see it now: shoot a 95 or better to qualify. If no one ever shoots a 95 that's just the way it is.

Face it hundred of people by a rife every year and wonder off into the woods to hunt. Are we going to want testing for those folks as well.

The goal is less restriction on the RKBA not more.

 

[MyGunsJammed]

Well, I just want to say that I'm glad I got my FLA CCW permit....

however if they want to make it more "strict" in the sense that CCW owners should get more hands on training then I'm all for it....

I'm all for safe gun ownership and use....

 

[Silver Bullet]

Yep, I agree. I think it's a joke that we are required to have a permit at all in any state.

I agree with this. The government has no business placing restrictions on basic rights. Should you be required to pass a test before you exercise free speech ?

 

[Al Norris]

ALready being discussed here.