Full length resizing die 30/06

[akinswi]

Does anybody else remove the decapping pin when full length re sizing? any benefits?

My other question is would you use a collet die first to de prime the brass. Or afterwards, (afterwards meaning after I sized the case.)

These reloads are going in my M1. I feel like if i do not remove the recapping pin its not completely resizing the case.

 

[USSR]

akinswi,

No way the decapping pin can prevent you from completely resizing a case if you have it protruding the proper distance below the bottom of the die. The ultimate thing that will stop the resizing is the bottom of the die contacting the shell holder. Hope that helps.

Don

 

[Unclenick]

Akinswi,

Do you mean you are removing the expander with the pin? They are a unit in the Lee FL dies, but the pin can be removed separately in most other brands. If so, this does leave the neck narrower than the collet die made it and that can make a difference in bullet pull. But if you are already using the collet die, you are already making a very good low-runout neck resizing job on the case and running it into the FL die is just overworking the neck unnecessarily.

Here is what I have done, and both approaches work very well, but each calls for another (but different) die:

Use the Lee Collet die for the neck and resize the case body (set the shoulder back) using a Redding Body Die, which is like an FL resizing die except it is just a few thousandths wider than the case neck, and so resizes the rest of the case (the body) but does not touch the neck.

Use your FL sizing die without an expander (you can decap on the Collet Die without closing it hard or you can get a Lee Universal Decapper) and then expand using a Lyman M-die. You set the M-die up so it just opens the last little bit of the case mouth with its step profile just before the flare (you don't need to set it all the way to the flare for jacketed bullets; the flare is just for cast bullets). That little step lets you set the bullet upright in the case for seating and keeps it there while you run the press ram up so bullets don't enter the seating die at an angle. This causes them to pick up much less tip runout during seating, and this improves accuracy measurably.

If you own a Redding Competition Seater Die or a Forster Benchrest Seating Die, you can use the first method to very good effect, as these dies do a great job of straightening bullets on the fly. If you have only a standard seater or the Lee Dead Length Seating Die, using the second method is the best way to get very concentric ammunition.

 

[akinswi]

Unclenick,

Thanks I will def try that as you suggested.

also you can remove the expander and pin from their dies, there is a nut on the top a 1/2 inch wrench will take it off.

I was thinking the neck tension would be enough without having to crimp if i removed the expander with pin since it sizes the neck smaller. the 168 mks dont have a cannuler so i figured i could go without a crimp . I typically have been using a very light crimp on the 168s. With all this down time amazes me how much prep work goes into the brass in the first place. I also have rcbs tool that i debur and chamfer the necks with was wondering if that would help align the bullets when seating them


thoughts

 

[USSR]

akinswi,

You don't need to remove the expander to get good neck tension. A properly functioning sizing die will give you all the neck tension you need with the expander ball doing it's job. My Garands function just fine without a crimp. All the crimp does is damage a bullet like the 168SMK which does not have a cannelure and is not designed to be crimped.

Don

 

[hammie]

I do things a little differently. I have a Lee universal decapping die, and a set of redding decapping dies. I decap everything first, which allows me to clean the primer pockets. Then I remove the decapping pin on the full length die and set the expander ball about an inch above the cartridge web. That way I can adjust the die and full length resize without ever worrying about bending the decapping/expander rod.

I've also pretty much replaced all my dies with redding dies. Not that they're necessarily better, but with redding you can buy an accessory carbide neck expander ball. You don't have to worry about lube. There is less force, no chatter, and less probability of elongation of the case neck.

I have also done what you asked about: Removing the expander to get more neck tension. But that was on a straight walled, tapered case, where the only bullet contact was at the case mouth (i.e. 30 US Carbine). I had problems with bullet setback otherwise.

 

[USSR]

I've also pretty much replaced all my dies with redding dies. Not that they're necessarily better, but with redding you can buy an accessory carbide neck expander ball.

I also use Redding dies (Competition Die Sets) for my precision loads, but Lyman also makes a carbide expander ball that I use that fits both Lyman and RCBS dies.

Don

 

[hammie]

@USSR: Bless your heart!!! I didn't know that about the Lyman carbide expander. I do have several RCBS dies which I can now retro-fit with carbide expanders. Midway does offer that Lyman accessory, but they are showing mostly as "out of stock". No problem. I can wait a bit. Thanks, thanks, and thanks.

 

[Unclenick]

I have used the carbide expander for some time in my Redding FL die for service rifle loading, and it does reduce friction and reduce the tendency to pull necks off-axis, though I still use dry neck lube with it. With all carbide sizing, inside or out, no matter how smoothly it works without lube, it gets even smoother and presents even lower drag with lube.

But to steer back OT, I infer the OP is using Lee Dies, and their design won't accommodate a carbide expander.

 

[cw308]

After switching to wet tumbling with SS pins , I pop the primers first with a universal decapper , clean the brass , when sizing I use the expander ball leaving the expander shaft with alittle wiggle room to self center also lube the inside of the case neck with a tip to smooth things up . It creates a second step in cleaning but it's no big deal I'm not sizing large quantities at a time. Take the time in die setup and FL size with the expander in one step . Works for me . Hope everyone is being safe and well , were getting slammed here in NY, this will pass , be well

Chris

 

[akinswi]

@hammie

I had the same issue with my 30 carbine loads as well zero neck tension after full length resizing. I always thought it was the brass. I got rid of my iver johnson M1 carbine had way to many issues with it . waiting on a deal on an actual GI M1 carbine. May be waiting ..... awhile.

 

[Marco Califo]

+1 Deprime, clean in wet tumbler with pins, and tumble in media with polish.
Only size clean shiny brass, to keep your die smooth.

 

[Nathan]

Let me propose something to you.... the fl die sizes the out side of the case to align it to the die axis.

Sounds perfect right? Case necks have some variation in thickness... a couple thousandths. The bullet aligns to the inside of the neck. After the die sizes the outside, that variation is pushed to the inside of the neck. Hmmm..

On the upstroke, the sizing ring/donut/plug pulls the inside of the neck into alignment with the die axis. Therefore, the inside of the neck and outside of the body are aligned to the die axis.

Then when you push the case/cartridge into the gun, with a spring ejector, the case shoulder rides the chamber shoulder to align the case/die axis with the chamber/throat axis. If the chamber/throat are cut in alignment to the bore from the chambering process, the bullet is aligned to the bore.

That is the datum scheme in a nutshell.

When you pull out the sizing button, you have to guarantee the necks are concentric ID to OD. I think many reloaders miss that point. That is why Redding makes a sizing button for the type S dies.

I think you mentioned crimp....why do we have crimp? Crimp serves 2 purposes. The many others shown in ads are mostly marketing.
1) It serves to “close” the mouth of a belled case so it is in position to be head spaced off.
2) It provides a light mechanical lock for rough cycling guns. This includes semi’s and revolvers. Then don’t all need it and often need very little fo max strength.

Crimp is no substitute for neck tension. Get a micrometer and measure neck od after sizing. Measure again as a loaded round....avoiding any bell....Subtract. That is your neck tension. Increase until bullets quit moving. Should be 0.001-0.005”. My AR15 loads were 0.004” if I remember right.

 

[Bart B.]

Nathaniel asks ....why do we have crimp?.

Asked that to three commercial ammo companies and Lake City arsenal regarding centerfire rifle ammo.

They all said it helps keep the bullet from being seated deeper by some external force before it is loaded in the rifle. Yes, some accuracy will be sacrificed for reliability. Match grade ammo's bullets are not crimped in place.

 

[RaySendero]

Nathan wrote:

Crimp is no substitute for neck tension. Get a micrometer and measure neck od after sizing. Measure again as a loaded round....avoiding any bell....Subtract. That is your neck tension. Increase until bullets quit moving. Should be 0.001-0.005”. My AR15 loads were 0.004” if I remember right.

Have you ever reloaded for a real hard kicking cartridge like 458WM?

 

[Nathan]

Have you ever reloaded for a real hard kicking cartridge like 458WM?

Do you consider a 458 Lott “real hard kicking”?

2) It provides a light mechanical lock for rough cycling guns. This includes semi’s and revolvers. Then don’t all need it and often need very little fo max strength.

I thought I covered that point in there, but I see how “rough cycling” could not include the recoil of a big bore rifle or revolver to some....

 

[Bart B.]

Expanders are seldom, if ever, used reloading ammo accurate enough to win matches and set records. One popular method follows....

Full length sizing dies whose necks are honed out to about .002" less than loaded round neck diameter typically produce straightest case necks relative to shoulder-body axis. Case mouths then have about. 001" interference fit gripping bullets such that a few pounds of force is needed to push the bullet forward in the case neck before it touches the throat.

 

[Nathan]

Bart, should we add......”cases with 0 neck thickness variation are run through these dies?” It is an important point.

 

[Bart B.]

Bart, should we add......”cases with 0 neck thickness variation are run through these dies?” It is an important point.

No, we don't need to say that. 'Tain't true nor factual.

30 caliber case necks with 1 to 2 thousandths spread in thickness sized in such gelded dies will position bullets no more than .001" off center in the bore when fired. An insignificant amount. This has been done with great success for decades.

I'm convinced too many folks think zero tolerance in cartridge dimensions is the only way to get best accuracy. There's bigger fish to fry. Such as bullet diameter relative to barrel groove diameter.

 

[RaySendero]

Nathan asked responding to:

Have you ever reloaded for a real hard kicking cartridge like 458WM?

Do you consider a 458 Lott “real hard kicking”?

If you did reload for a 458, Did you add a crimp or just go with "neck tension"?