frozen berms and ricochets

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fivepaknh

New member
My gun club has closed their ranges due to frozen berms. They test them by poking them with a sharp weighted metal pole. Is this an accurate test? Unless they're poking the ground at about 1000 fps then how can this test be worthwhile?

I just bought a handgun yesterday and I'm eager to shoot it. I pay to use this facility and feel if they shut it down due to frozen berms then members should receive a partial refund of membership dues.

Does anyone else belong to a club that does this?
 
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Sneezer

New member
They would not be doing it if there was not a reason. They are only trying to save your life.

My steel targets say do not shoot at under 15 yds, So I went down to 10 yds and got a big hole in my shin.

I feel your pain but suck it up, they are just trying to help.
 
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Don H

New member
finrot said:
what is a berm?
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berm
Pronunciation: \ˈbərm\
Function: noun
Etymology: French berme, from Dutch berm strip of ground along a dike; akin to Middle English brimme brim
Date: 1704
1: a narrow shelf, path, or ledge typically at the top or bottom of a slope ; also : a mound or wall of earth or sand <a landscaped berm>
2: the shoulder of a road
http://mw1.merriam-webster.com/dictionary/berm

In the usage in the OP, it would be an earth mound or wall that would act as a backstop for bullets.
 
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Mike Irwin

Staff
If the ground is hard enough to resist a pointed iron rod, I suspect that it is more than hard enough to resist a bullet.

My Dad used to be a surveyor when I was growing up. I used to work for him.

In the spring we would always have a lot of land surveys to do, stuff that had built up over the winter and we couldn't do because the weather was too bad.

One of the biggest pains in the butt was trying to drive oak line stakes into ground that was nice and soft for the first couple of inches, and frozen hard below that. As often as not the oak stake would shatter.

More than once while trying to drive an iron pin for a property corner I had the pin fold in half.

A matrix of frozen earth and ice is AMAZINGLY tough.
 
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radom

New member
A wet froze berm could be like concrete. I leaned the hard way having to dig up the septic tank in the winter after my daughter flushed wood shaving from a rodent cage down the head here.
 
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hogdogs

Staff In Memoriam
I leaned the hard way having to dig up the septic tank in the winter after my daughter flushed wood shaving from a rodent cage down the head here.
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Had this happened here... little miss.hogdogs would be diggin!:D
Brent
 
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DesertDawg

New member
How about suggesting that they hold a membership "Berm party"? Someone might have access to a small bull dozer or back hoe, and you'd probably be able to find some dry, unfrozen dirt somewhere. After that, perhaps engineer some sort of underground run-off (wood planking with screens) to lessen the amount of moisture in the dirt.

Cost? Well, it would depend upon the number of members that you have, but it would probably not be that much per member.

Bonus! The frozen dirt will eventually un-freeze and dry out...and there will be a "gold mine" of boolits that can be sifted out and recycled!

An after-thought: Instead of just new dry dirt, add some rock salt to the mix. That would probably lessen the amount of the freeze-up.
 
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Kreyzhorse

New member
I pay to use this facility and feel if they shut it down due to frozen berms then members should receive a partial refund of membership dues.
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In my opinion, I'd be happy that the gun club took safety very serious and deal with it.
 
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Rich Miranda

New member
My gun club has closed their ranges due to frozen berms....Does anyone else belong to a club that does this?
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I'm in south Texas, so what does frozen mean? :D

Seriously, that never happens here but, as I understand it, frozen dirt is about as hard as stuff can get. Ricochets are a real danger as I have been hit in the shin by a .45 ricochet at 20 yards. It didn't penetrate (but it hurt!). Any closer and it may have.

I'd say that some precaution is a good thing.
 
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Kitgun

New member
What about rocks? They can cause the same problem in any weather, this sounds like a lawyer induced problem to me.
 
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Rich Miranda

New member
What about rocks? They can cause the same problem in any weather, this sounds like a lawyer induced problem to me.
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Good point, but at the range I frequent the berm looks like clean loam with no stones of any size, period. I'm not certain if they buy clean loam on purpose or if it just looks that way, but there are no visible stones.

Considering the geology here in South Texas, the dirt they use on the berm has to be imported since we don't have clean brown loam around here. It's all rocky, sandy stuff.
 
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Mike Irwin

Staff
The berms on every range I have been on have been made with soil that has been sifted for any rocks over about half a fist in diameter.
 
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fivepaknh

New member
They do us soil free of rock for the berms at our club.

I spoke to one of the range officers and he said it's unlikely the ranges will be open again until March.
 
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AZAK

New member
A matrix of frozen earth and ice is AMAZINGLY tough.
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Permafrost. (Think Arctic Circle and above & Interior Alaska) Drive pilings into it and build buildings upon them. Buildings sit upon these foundations for years/decades. (Unless Mother Nature/Global warming, take your pick, decides to turn up the thermostat - do a quick web search for images and see house of cards coming down.)
 
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CrustyCrayon

New member
Sounds like a good mythbusters episode to me. My bet is that if you shoot it with a soft point and it's not going to be an issue, fmj is another story, but it might not be worth the risk of either.
 
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