JAMES L.SMITH
New member
If I add a front pistol grip to my AK, AR15 OR Mini14 would I be breaking any FEDERAL LAWS?
Front Pistol Grip Legal?
- Thread starter JAMES L.SMITH
- Start date
heres the federal definition:
b) DEFINITION OF SEMIAUTOMATIC ASSAULT WEAPON- Section 921(a) of
title 18, United States Code, is amended by adding at the end the
following new paragraph:
`(30) The term `semiautomatic assault weapon' means--
`(A) any of the firearms, or copies or duplicates of the
firearms in any caliber, known as--
`(i) Norinco, Mitchell, and Poly Technologies Avtomat
Kalashnikovs (all models);
`(ii) Action Arms Israeli Military Industries UZI and
Galil;
`(iii) Beretta Ar70 (SC-70);
`(iv) Colt AR-15;
`(v) Fabrique National FN/FAL, FN/LAR, and FNC;
`(vi) SWD M-10, M-11, M-11/9, and M-12;
`(vii) Steyr AUG;
`(viii) INTRATEC TEC-9, TEC-DC9 and TEC-22; and
`(ix) revolving cylinder shotguns, such as (or similar
to) the Street Sweeper and Striker 12;
`(B) a semiautomatic rifle that has an ability to accept a
detachable magazine and has at least 2 of--
`(i) a folding or telescoping stock;
`(ii) a pistol grip that protrudes conspicuously beneath
the action of the weapon;
`(iii) a bayonet mount;
`(iv) a flash suppressor or threaded barrel designed to
accommodate a flash suppressor; and
`(v) a grenade launcher;
`(C) a semiautomatic pistol that has an ability to accept a
detachable magazine and has at least 2 of--
`(i) an ammunition magazine that attaches to the pistol
outside of the pistol grip;
`(ii) a threaded barrel capable of accepting a barrel
extender, flash suppressor, forward handgrip, or silencer;
`(iii) a shroud that is attached to, or partially or
completely encircles, the barrel and that permits the
shooter to hold the firearm with the nontrigger hand
without being burned;
`(iv) a manufactured weight of 50 ounces or more when the
pistol is unloaded; and
`(v) a semiautomatic version of an automatic firearm; and
`(D) a semiautomatic shotgun that has at least 2 of--
`(i) a folding or telescoping stock;
`(ii) a pistol grip that protrudes conspicuously beneath
the action of the weapon;
`(iii) a fixed magazine capacity in excess of 5 rounds; and
`(iv) an ability to accept a detachable magazine.'.
b) DEFINITION OF SEMIAUTOMATIC ASSAULT WEAPON- Section 921(a) of
title 18, United States Code, is amended by adding at the end the
following new paragraph:
`(30) The term `semiautomatic assault weapon' means--
`(A) any of the firearms, or copies or duplicates of the
firearms in any caliber, known as--
`(i) Norinco, Mitchell, and Poly Technologies Avtomat
Kalashnikovs (all models);
`(ii) Action Arms Israeli Military Industries UZI and
Galil;
`(iii) Beretta Ar70 (SC-70);
`(iv) Colt AR-15;
`(v) Fabrique National FN/FAL, FN/LAR, and FNC;
`(vi) SWD M-10, M-11, M-11/9, and M-12;
`(vii) Steyr AUG;
`(viii) INTRATEC TEC-9, TEC-DC9 and TEC-22; and
`(ix) revolving cylinder shotguns, such as (or similar
to) the Street Sweeper and Striker 12;
`(B) a semiautomatic rifle that has an ability to accept a
detachable magazine and has at least 2 of--
`(i) a folding or telescoping stock;
`(ii) a pistol grip that protrudes conspicuously beneath
the action of the weapon;
`(iii) a bayonet mount;
`(iv) a flash suppressor or threaded barrel designed to
accommodate a flash suppressor; and
`(v) a grenade launcher;
`(C) a semiautomatic pistol that has an ability to accept a
detachable magazine and has at least 2 of--
`(i) an ammunition magazine that attaches to the pistol
outside of the pistol grip;
`(ii) a threaded barrel capable of accepting a barrel
extender, flash suppressor, forward handgrip, or silencer;
`(iii) a shroud that is attached to, or partially or
completely encircles, the barrel and that permits the
shooter to hold the firearm with the nontrigger hand
without being burned;
`(iv) a manufactured weight of 50 ounces or more when the
pistol is unloaded; and
`(v) a semiautomatic version of an automatic firearm; and
`(D) a semiautomatic shotgun that has at least 2 of--
`(i) a folding or telescoping stock;
`(ii) a pistol grip that protrudes conspicuously beneath
the action of the weapon;
`(iii) a fixed magazine capacity in excess of 5 rounds; and
`(iv) an ability to accept a detachable magazine.'.
Assuming that you have a pre-ban gun there is no problem. If you do it to a handgun BATF has ruled that you need to register it as a SBR. dz thoughtfully provided the statute for post ban guns:
(ii) a pistol grip that protrudes conspicuously beneath
the action of the weapon;
If you add a pistol grip to the forend of the rifle it wouldn't be beneath the action of the weapon. It would be beneath the barrel. Or would it?
(ii) a pistol grip that protrudes conspicuously beneath
the action of the weapon;
If you add a pistol grip to the forend of the rifle it wouldn't be beneath the action of the weapon. It would be beneath the barrel. Or would it?
If it's a pre-ban assault weapon, no problem. If it's post-ban, read the federal definition very carefully to make sure you're not manufacturing an assault weapon.
Jeff-
Doing it to a handgun makes it an AOW (Any Other Weapon), not SBR (Short Barreled Rifle). Reason is: a pistol is defined as having _one_ vertical grip, and adding a second vertical grip creates a gun which does not explicitly fit any definition, and thus falls in the Any Other Weapon category. (Neat trick from that is you can make a legal full-blown AR-15 pistol - flash suppressor, over-weight, and everything - if you build it with a vertical foregrip and register it as an AOW.)
As for the "beneath" question, that could be (maybe, long shot) a valid nuance, but I've never heard of that distinction being made (and I've looked for such nuances). Unless you ask the BATF, err safely on the side of no distinction.
Jeff-
Doing it to a handgun makes it an AOW (Any Other Weapon), not SBR (Short Barreled Rifle). Reason is: a pistol is defined as having _one_ vertical grip, and adding a second vertical grip creates a gun which does not explicitly fit any definition, and thus falls in the Any Other Weapon category. (Neat trick from that is you can make a legal full-blown AR-15 pistol - flash suppressor, over-weight, and everything - if you build it with a vertical foregrip and register it as an AOW.)
As for the "beneath" question, that could be (maybe, long shot) a valid nuance, but I've never heard of that distinction being made (and I've looked for such nuances). Unless you ask the BATF, err safely on the side of no distinction.
If I had a dollar...
...for every guy I've seen tooling around a gun show with a TEC-9 or MAC with a barrel extender and forward pistol grip, I'd buy out Bill Gates.
I just know they ain't all registered AOW's, either. Some folks must just enjoy courting disaster, because you know there's never any F-troopers at a gun show...
...for every guy I've seen tooling around a gun show with a TEC-9 or MAC with a barrel extender and forward pistol grip, I'd buy out Bill Gates.
I just know they ain't all registered AOW's, either. Some folks must just enjoy courting disaster, because you know there's never any F-troopers at a gun show...
[And now it's time for TFL's "Ask Tamara"]
Tamara, violations of the NFA aside, oh, wise guru of the mountaintop of the Land of Orange, tell us unenlightened why the gunshop commando makes his pistol (or any weapon) MORE bulky. Is this a symptom of the raging "Iwannacoolgun" virus?
Why would you want another protrusion to interfere with tac or speed reload and going prone? Can't these people be sent to skul? Please advise.
Clueless in Lafayette
Tamara, violations of the NFA aside, oh, wise guru of the mountaintop of the Land of Orange, tell us unenlightened why the gunshop commando makes his pistol (or any weapon) MORE bulky. Is this a symptom of the raging "Iwannacoolgun" virus?
Why would you want another protrusion to interfere with tac or speed reload and going prone? Can't these people be sent to skul? Please advise.
Clueless in Lafayette
If the rifle can accept detachable mags (I assume yours does ) then you can only have ONE of the following features on a post ban rifle. Anything else is illegal on post ban rifles. You can have one, or two, pistol grips on it as long as the other features are not present. A permanently attached (welded) muzzle brake (not a flash hider) is acceptable) in addition to the PG and detachable mag. Applicable laws and logic may not apply to California, New Jersey, or Maryland.
`(ii) a pistol grip that protrudes conspicuously beneath
the action of the weapon;
`(iv) a flash suppressor or threaded barrel designed to
accommodate a flash suppressor; and
`(ii) a pistol grip that protrudes conspicuously beneath
the action of the weapon;
`(iv) a flash suppressor or threaded barrel designed to
accommodate a flash suppressor; and
urban assault
New member
The reason why it is done is to increase the utility of the weapon. The front vertical foregrip allows the user to hold the weapon more securely and used in conjunction with a barrel extension makes the addition of "tactical"(red dot scopes, lasers, flashlights,etc.) accessories very easy.
michael
michael
David Park
New member
It seems to me that the only time you might run into trouble would be adding a pistol grip to a post-ban weapon that did not already have one, for example the Mini-14, especially in California. However, since most forward pistol grips are not below the action (as mentioned), there shouldn't be a problem under federal law.
The paranoid gun-banners seem to have missed this "evil" feature that could change a sporting firearm into a death-dealing weapon of mass carnage, so take advantage of the "loophole" while you can.
The paranoid gun-banners seem to have missed this "evil" feature that could change a sporting firearm into a death-dealing weapon of mass carnage, so take advantage of the "loophole" while you can.
yankytrash
New member
The term "action" is meant literally, as Jeff pointed out. When a 'pistol grip' is placed beneath the barrel of a weapon, it is called a vertical fore-end grip.
I present to the court Exhibit 'A', a legal long arm currently manufactured by Auto Ordnance requiring no special taxes, designations, or occupations, to legally own by most any US citizen:
Cheezy, but legal.
striderteen
New member
Forward pistol grips are useful mostly for increased control when firing a full-auto weapon. In the case of a pump-action shotgun, a forward pistol grip also makes it easier to pump rapidly.
Forward pistol grips are federally legal to add to any weapon, but if the weapon is a pistol, you must pay $200 for manufacturing an AOW. Caliban law says differently, but thats the Caliban for you. So in regards to your question: As long as your AR, AK or Mini14 is not listed as a pistol, the forward grip is legal to add under federal law.
Striderteen: Actually it makes the firearm much more easy to control in CQB situations, not just for fully automatic fire. Also it allows for you to positively draw the firearm further into the pocket of your shoulder, so recoil is absorbed by your body and allows for easier weapon retention. A horizontal peice is much harder to hold onto than a vertical peice when someone is trying to yank it out of your hands horizontally.
Kharn
Striderteen: Actually it makes the firearm much more easy to control in CQB situations, not just for fully automatic fire. Also it allows for you to positively draw the firearm further into the pocket of your shoulder, so recoil is absorbed by your body and allows for easier weapon retention. A horizontal peice is much harder to hold onto than a vertical peice when someone is trying to yank it out of your hands horizontally.
Kharn
KSFreeman...
A closed-bolt 9mm MAC that weighs all of 5 pounds with all the crap dangling off of it has got to be a beast to control in rapid-ish semi-auto fire. Surely one can see the need for a foregrip there? As for the TEC-9, it provides a more convenient spot to grasp the firearm when clearing frequent jams.
Re: gingerbread on guns
Personally, I think the best use for those "tactical rail" fore-ends for AR's would be if someone would come out with an attachable ashtray and cupholder for extended bench sessions. (You could even plumb the cupholder into copper tubing under the handguards and have an impromptu barrel cooling device!)
A closed-bolt 9mm MAC that weighs all of 5 pounds with all the crap dangling off of it has got to be a beast to control in rapid-ish semi-auto fire. Surely one can see the need for a foregrip there? As for the TEC-9, it provides a more convenient spot to grasp the firearm when clearing frequent jams.
Re: gingerbread on guns
Personally, I think the best use for those "tactical rail" fore-ends for AR's would be if someone would come out with an attachable ashtray and cupholder for extended bench sessions. (You could even plumb the cupholder into copper tubing under the handguards and have an impromptu barrel cooling device!)
striderteen,
This is based on your experience with which automatic weapons and which shotguns?
The main reason for the "baseball bat" on the MP5K is to have someplace to put your hand, as there's not enough room for a conventional fore-end as on regular-length MP5's. I've fired both, and haven't noticed an appreciable advantage in controllability afforded by the vertical fore-end vis a vis the conventional one.
I've stuck vertical foregrips on a couple of Mossies I've owned, mostly because they look scary, and they do seem to make short-cycling the weapon under stress less likely, but all-in-all I'd prefer a conventional fore-end with a flashlight holder.
I have noticed one benefit to pistol-grip stocks over conventional ones. Having broken my right arm just below the wrist in a motorcycle accident, I've lost some range of motion in my right wrist. With straight-wristed stocks like that on my roomie's "Tanker" Enfield, a proper firing grip can get uncomfortable fast. Stocks with a pistol-grip wrist are more comfortable, and pistol-gripped "black rifles" are the most comfortable of all.
My AK (see below) has a pistol grip fore-end on it. Why? Well, firstly, it came that way. Secondly (and more importantly) it scares the bejabbers out of Dianne Feinstein and Chuck Schumer.
This is based on your experience with which automatic weapons and which shotguns?
The main reason for the "baseball bat" on the MP5K is to have someplace to put your hand, as there's not enough room for a conventional fore-end as on regular-length MP5's. I've fired both, and haven't noticed an appreciable advantage in controllability afforded by the vertical fore-end vis a vis the conventional one.
I've stuck vertical foregrips on a couple of Mossies I've owned, mostly because they look scary, and they do seem to make short-cycling the weapon under stress less likely, but all-in-all I'd prefer a conventional fore-end with a flashlight holder.
I have noticed one benefit to pistol-grip stocks over conventional ones. Having broken my right arm just below the wrist in a motorcycle accident, I've lost some range of motion in my right wrist. With straight-wristed stocks like that on my roomie's "Tanker" Enfield, a proper firing grip can get uncomfortable fast. Stocks with a pistol-grip wrist are more comfortable, and pistol-gripped "black rifles" are the most comfortable of all.
My AK (see below) has a pistol grip fore-end on it. Why? Well, firstly, it came that way. Secondly (and more importantly) it scares the bejabbers out of Dianne Feinstein and Chuck Schumer.
striderteen
New member
Tamara, the MP-5 series are exceptionally well-designed guns; hence, muzzle rise is neglegible. Most guns are not so fortunate.
The M-14A1 version of the M-14 rifle is a good example. The U.S Army insisted on having their new assault rifle design fire a full-power 7.62x51mm cartridge rather than a reduced-power one like everyone else...well, they got it, but the thing was all but uncontrollable in full auto fire. The later (but rare) M-14A1 improved version featured improvements to increase controllability in auto, chief among them a forward pistol grip.
Your AK probably has a pistol grip because it doesn't have a stock. While I admittedly have no experience with said firearm, I imagine it would be a tad hard to fire that thing one-handed.
Incidentally, I wish my mom was more like you. AK + motorcycle = one cool lady!!!
The M-14A1 version of the M-14 rifle is a good example. The U.S Army insisted on having their new assault rifle design fire a full-power 7.62x51mm cartridge rather than a reduced-power one like everyone else...well, they got it, but the thing was all but uncontrollable in full auto fire. The later (but rare) M-14A1 improved version featured improvements to increase controllability in auto, chief among them a forward pistol grip.
Your AK probably has a pistol grip because it doesn't have a stock. While I admittedly have no experience with said firearm, I imagine it would be a tad hard to fire that thing one-handed.
Incidentally, I wish my mom was more like you. AK + motorcycle = one cool lady!!!
The accessories to hang off a shoulder-stocked full-auto .308 to make it at all useful are a bipod and belt-feed. I've shot full-auto M-14's, my roomie was issued a G3 in the service, as was fellow TFL'er T. Stahl. All of us basically agree that full-auto on these rifles is about as useful as teats on a boar hog.
(That AK has a stock; a standard underfolder. Actually that front pistol grip is a little annoying as it interferes with rapid mag changes. But, hey, it came with it on there and it looks groovy. The last underfolder I had had a conventional fore-end and could still be fired with the stock folded, although the folded spike bayonet would sometimes poke the index finger of your left hand)
(That AK has a stock; a standard underfolder. Actually that front pistol grip is a little annoying as it interferes with rapid mag changes. But, hey, it came with it on there and it looks groovy. The last underfolder I had had a conventional fore-end and could still be fired with the stock folded, although the folded spike bayonet would sometimes poke the index finger of your left hand)
striderteen
New member
Cool stuff. From what I've read, full automatic fire on any 7.62x51mm assault rifle (M-14, FN FAL, AG-3) is more or less useless, as the muzzle rise is excessive. Soldier of Fortune magazine reported that, with a FAL at 10 meters, the third bullet will miss over the target's right shoulder.