For discussion….how do you judge if a …..

[Nathan]

Die set is good for your process? Like what do you want in a sizer and seater to be good enough for you?

I’ll answer…To me a sizing die is good when it sizes brass fired from my rifle such that the the body OD is concentric to the neck ID with minimal sizing. Maybe 0.0025” or less. I also want cbtd variation under 0.0015”.

With a seater, I want to add minimal eccentricity when adding the bullet into the equation. I also want to seat repeatedly with under 0.003” cbto variation. I find total runout under 0.006” not to effect accuracy in my better hunting rifles.

To get anywhere close to these numbers, you will need pretty consistent brass & bullets, IME.

Thoughts?

 

[HiBC]

I'm not familar with cbt

I understand Total Indicated Runout (tir)

I'd expect the interior geometry of a sizing die to be "dead nutz" coaxial/concentric. Its all cut at the same time.

As far as what results you get on the sized brass,remember the expander spindle is not integral with the die body, and its not rigid.

If the neck id is not concentric with the brass od...Could be about the expander.
Might need a neck anneal,might be dirt,might need a touch of lube,etc.

Then there is neck wall uniformity. Your dies or expander cannot fix that. And its not a die issue. You may have discovered why some folks neck turn.

Bullet seating concentricity? Its one of those topics. No matter what I say,somebody will argue.

Some dies and seater punches work better than others. The floating sleeve seater dies can give great results. The Bonanza/Forster Co-Ax press can give great results.
Some folks swear by an O-ring and tightening the lock ring with the ram up,putting a load on the die.

Then there is weird stuff about bat fur ,geckos and a dead chicken and sage smoke..

Seems like you have the tool to measure and the will to find what works for you.

I think you have the important parts,

 

[std7mag]

My thoughts are if your getting THAT um, detailed about it.
You should be a national level bench rest shooter.

I have more of a KISS aproach. (Keep It Simple Stupid)

 

[stinkeypete]

Wow. I’m just happy if they have a neck sizing die in the little round box with the red lid.

 

[Bart B.]

Wow. I’m just happy if they have a neck sizing die in the little round box with the red lid.

Proper techniques with full length sizing dies for bottleneck rifle cases have produced best accuracy since the 1960's.

The bullets are then best centered in the bore when fired. If the bolt has an in line ejector, bullets are centered before firing.

folks swear by an O-ring and tightening the lock ring with the ram up,putting a load on the die.

Tightening the lock ring puts a load on the die without an O-ring under it.

 

[Metal god]

I'm not familar with cbt

LOL well you can thank Guffey for that . CBTD is case headspace haha . It stands for Case Base To Datum . LMAO this was my whole point during those totally fruitless threads about case headspace and Guffey blowing them up . The idea of keeping the case headspace terminology was that it was already being used by leaders in the industry and widely excepted . Case headspace was much easier to write then writing out every time " the measurement from the head of the case to the datum point on the shoulder" .

Guffey comes along and BOOM ! all goes to hell " cases don't have head space !!!!! bla bal bla .

So now instead of explaining what case headspace is , which is easier to understand because it directly correlates to the chambers headspace . We are now explaining not only what does CBTD mean , we also have to explain datum . All Guffey did was prolong the confusion by changing a term that had already been widely excepted by industry leaders and reloaders alike .

RCBS - PRECISION MIC CARTRIDGE HEADSPACE TOOL
https://www.brownells.com/reloading...n-mic-cartridge-headspace-tool-prod33476.aspx

NUFF SAID end rant lol

Oh sorry how do I choose my dies and why . I take other reloaders whom I respect opinions into account . Then apply that to my needs and buy the dies accordingly or at least that was my process . Now after plenty of experience and using several die manufactures . I simply buy what has worked for me so far .

 

[44 AMP]

Die set is good for your process? Like what do you want in a sizer and seater to be good enough for you?

If it loads ammo that fits and functions in my firearms, that pretty much does it for me. If it comes out of a box marked Lyman or RCBS, I take it as good, and haven't been let down by either of those in over half a century.

My other personal requirement is die features. I like lock rings that lock, and I don't care for plastic seating stems or things like that.

I have a couple Lee die sets, they work, but I don't particularly like them. A personal choice. I've gotten Lee when nothing else was available, but also replaced Lee with RCBS when I found die sets in that cartridge.

I don't bother with measuring to the datum point, nor do I "bump" shoulders a certain amount, and whatever you get measuring case base to ogive is meaningless to me. (not having your rifle, your bullets or knowing where on the ogive you are measuring to...)

I don't shoot in matches, and I don't own a "match grade" rifle, and the tips, tricks and things to check that might win a match are pretty much useless to me.

A friend of mine is fond of saying "how does this help me put an elk in my freezer with my Savage 99? it doesn't.

And, I totally see his point.

 

[Shadow9mm]

If the ammo fits and feeds in the firearm good to go. So far I have used Lee, Hornady, Rcbs, and Lyman. All have gotten the job done. Lyman did not like my hornady locking rings, so I avoid them now. I lean towards Hornady as I like bullet alignment sleeves and their locking rings. I cannot stand the RCBS seating depth adjustment, the nut and screwdriver setup but I love their small base and x-series sizing dies. I love the lee factory crimp dies, both for rifles and handguns. Never measured concentricity. Have found great gains in small progressive seating depth adjustments, .003 at a time. have cut groups almost in half doing that. my hunting rifle will shoot 0.75moa, and my AR will hold 1moa. Meets my needs.

 

[Unclenick]

For the record, Mr. Guffey never disagreed that the aforementioned tools could be used to make a takeoff measurement of cartridge headspace. His point was just that cartridge headspace is in the chamber, where you need space for the cartridge head as well as all the other parts of it.

I don't know of any dies that won't do what the OP is asking for, if used properly. Some of the things specified, such as sizing length consistency, have more to do with press rigidity and pre-loading as by use of the Redding competition shell holders or shim washers. Some seating dies won't keep runout down enough unless you add expansion with a Lyman M-die between sizing and seating. Some expanders built into sizing dies pull the necks off-axis and need to be removed and substituted for, as with a mandrel or using the same Lyman M-die.

 

[HiBC]

I am not promoting the process of putting an "UP" load on the die and using an O-ring.
I read Precision Shooting Magazine's Reloading guide
There is a section on setting up reloading dies for concentric ammunition.

That is where I read about putting an "Up" load on the die and using an O-ring under the lock ring. It was the method recommended in that book.

Here is a link to take you to the listing on Amazon.

Apparently some folks think its a valuable reference. The going price for a used copy is around (gasp) $ 750.00

Bart, I don't pretend to have the knowledge or experience you do, and I can't argue the point with you. I'm not here to argue with you.

But I also don't think I need to be jumped every time I mention it.

I did not tell the OP it was the last word. I told him he has the means to measure his results. To find what works for him.

I correctly stated that no matter what I offered,somebody would not like it

https://www.amazon.com/Precision-Sh...hooting+reloading+guide,stripbooks,234&sr=1-1

 

[hounddawg]

I am with std7mag and stinkypete, simple works

 

[Shadow9mm]

I am not promoting the process of putting an "UP" load on the die and using an O-ring.
I read Precision Shooting Magazine's Reloading guide
There is a section on setting up reloading dies for concentric ammunition.

That is where I read about putting an "Up" load on the die and using an O-ring under the lock ring. It was the method recommended in that book.

Here is a link to take you to the listing on Amazon.

Apparently some folks think its a valuable reference. The going price for a used copy is around (gasp) $ 750.00

Bart, I don't pretend to have the knowledge or experience you do, and I can't argue the point with you. I'm not here to argue with you.

But I also don't think I need to be jumped every time I mention it.

I did not tell the OP it was the last word. I told him he has the means to measure his results. To find what works for him.

I correctly stated that no matter what I offered,somebody would not like it

https://www.amazon.com/Precision-Sh...hooting+reloading+guide,stripbooks,234&sr=1-1

Pretty sure all LEE die set lock rings have o-rings built in, hmmmm.......

Also, johnnies reloading bench did some testing for which dies and processes gave the best concentricity. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=zIK5wq5vuSU If memory serves me correctly, I think the best results were with the lee dies.

 

[hounddawg]

one thing worth remembering is that all full length non bushing dies are cut in one pass by a one piece through reamer. Similar to a chamber reamer, just slightly smaller dimensions. It is only during the sizing operation itself at the time that the neck and body are not constrained by the die walls that any misalignment can occur

Of course that is assuming that the neck walls are of even thickness and the interior is concentric to the outer walls. Turning the neckz to a consistent thickness and using a mandrel for the final dimensioning helps

 

[Metal god]

The Hornady quick release bushing system for your dies use a rubber O ring between the press and bushing to hold in place . This would be just like placing an O ring under the lock ring on a standard die and press . They would do nothing to help with concentricity because once you start to put a load on the die it is the threads interaction between the die and press that are holding the load and how they act upon each other is what will determine the alignment of the die . . The only time the O ring would have an effect would be on extraction of the case from the die and at that point the damage would have been done .

However an O ring under the expander button rod and lock ring allowing the expander button to float a bit could help concentricity as it’s pulled back through the neck . Not sure how much because the case is no longer supported and the shell holder is the only thing holding the case in place . Yes it allows the neck to self center but what is it self centering too ?

For the record, Mr. Guffey never disagreed that the aforementioned tools could be used to make a takeoff measurement of cartridge headspace. His point was just that cartridge headspace is in the chamber, where you need space for the cartridge head as well as all the other parts of it.

Haha Mr Guffey never said anything , just pretty much rambled on about his tools and datums . NEVER ONCE explaining what his tools where or how he used them which could have been very helpful to others .