Fly the flag, pay the fine...

[John/az2]

http://www.worldnetdaily.com/frame/direct.asp?SITE=ap.tbo.com/ap/florida/MGA19YIFHOC.html

Judge: West Palm Beach Vet Must Pay $7,300 for Flag Pole
The Associated Press
Published: Jun 27, 2001

WEST PALM BEACH, Fla. (AP) - A patriotic Jupiter resident said he was willing to go to jail for flying an American flag from a 12-foot pole in his front yard, a violation of his homeowners association and a court order.
But instead of jail time, a judge Wednesday ordered George Andres, a Korean War veteran, to pay $100 for each day the pole was planted outside his town house since she ordered him to take it down last October.

Andres could have faced up to 90 days in jail for contempt of court, according to his attorney, Brook Fisher.

The Indian Creek Phase 3B Homeowners Association permits flags flown only from wall brackets attached to the homes. It says 17 homeowners have chosen to raise American flags that way.

But Andres, a former Marine and retired electrician, says he has a constitutional right to fly the flag from the pole.

"If you can burn a flag, you have no problem," he said. "So, if you can burn a flag, why can't you fly the flag?"

He also contends he would be desecrating the flag by flying it from the brackets because it would touch the bushes in his yard.

The association sued Andres over the flagpole, and a state court agreed with it last October.

Circuit Judge Catherine Brunson ruled that the association's restriction didn't infringe on Andres' rights. An appeals court earlier this month upheld Brunson's ruling.

But the two sides were back in Brunson's West Palm Beach courtroom this week, after the association said it had photos and a calendar to show that Andres had flown the flag 73 days since the Oct. 27 ruling, which would cost him $7,300.

Andres argued that he flew the flag only on federal holidays.

The association's attorney, Steven Selz, said the issue isn't about the flag, but the pole, which hurts the neighborhood's appearance.

"I know he's a patriotic guy," Selz said. "But he has to follow the rules like everybody else."

 

[Nightcrawler]

"But he has to follow the rules like everybody else."

You will shut up and fall in line. Do as you're told. You're supposed to be a boot-licking authoritarian, scurrying to please your master like a dog.

Resistance is futile.

 

[MellowMikey]

He should have read the homeowners association agreement before moving in.
He has every right to fly that flag, but he signed his right away legally when he agreed to be in the homeowners association.
What a shame.

Mellow

 

[Dangus]

Homeowners associations are a threat to democracy in a very serious way. They are found in developments, which are homogenized units, like a hive. Any variances are punished severely wifh fines and with rules backed up by law. Homeowners associations are in every since of the word yet another government that a homeowner must be subserviant to. No flags, no guns, no free speech. No anything if they say so. It's getting increasingly hard to buy a house without being forced into the hive like this.

 

[paratrooper]

Help me out here . How does a judge get to fine someone for breaking an agreement with another private party . As I understand it if I rent a room from you with the written understanding that I am home by 10:00 it is a private agreement . If I fail to do it I must abide by the written agreement between US!!!! This looks like this fella has been charged with a crime . I think his lawyer is riding the money train . He should have said that the court has no jusisdiction . It is a private matter with relief spelled out in the agreement . Usually an amount of money to be paid or imposed upon sale of the prorerty . Sumptin 'taint rite hair .

 

[Mike Irwin]

Para,

The fine isn't for breaking an agreement with another party.

It's for ignoring the order of the court.

Subtle, but important, difference.

I'm vice president of my homeowner's association in Virginia. They're like any other form of government (which, in some states, is what they are) -- they can be good, or they can be bad.

You have to be very careful as to what you're getting in to when you move into a community that is governed by a local association.

My association makes a VERY concerted effort to maintain a very low impact/presence in the community. Luckily, most of the residents (small community, 77 townhomes) voluntarily follow our rather scant list of rules and regulations. We've had very few problems with residents, and judging by the reactions of the vast majority of our residents, they have very few problems with us.

The biggest problem we've had in the last 12 months?

College students throwing very wild parties.

 

[gryphon]

First thing I do before even considering to buy a house is to find out if there is a home owners association. If so, then the currrent owner is SOL, I refuse to pay $130,000+ for a place to live and land that is supposed to be mine, only to be told by people that you are paying money to how you can use your investment.

I really think that we need to do something about this type of racketeering.

 

[dZ]

try buying a home in Washington DC Metro area sans homeowners association

 

[Mike Irwin]

Certainly your right, Gryphon.

But racketeering indicates illegal activities.

Homeowners Associations are, as I noted, just another form of government.

And, quite frankly, they have a rather long history in the United States. Similar entities, believe it or not, existed in pre-Revolutionary days.

 

[Mr. James]

Help me out here (a mind is a terrible thing to lose), but wasn't this old boy the subject of a previous thread? It wasn't just the flagpole, although the association should be publicly flogged for objecting to it. This guy made all sorts of modifications to his property, including an added porch and fence. And he had the temerity to walk his lot carrying openly (audible gasp). My paltry efforts at a search didn't find the old thread, but this guy has been locking horns with his homeowners' association on a dozen different fronts.

Mike Irwin's distinction is a good one. The punishment is for being impertinent enough to question the judge's original order (I'm thinking of that Fairfax Co. driving range owner who got bent over because he wouldn't move some shrubbery). "A-r-r-rest the usual suspects."

 

[Coronach]

You would not be mistaking him for our very own walking disaster area and zoning violation, FUD, would you?

Mike

 

[Mike Irwin]

Coronach,

Nope, not FUD, although his battles with his HOA were also quite legendary.

Mr. James hasn't been a member of this forum long enough to know FUD.

 

[Mike Irwin]

Hey Mr. James...

One of these days I'd like to read over your association documentation, including your bylaws and covenants and restrictions, if I may.

 

[USGuns]

These people have entirely WAY too much time and money on their hands to sue someone over a flag pole...

 

[paratrooper]

We own a lot outside of Kingman AZ and there are CCR's involved . They are pretty simple and clear . I will look later at the exact way disputes are settled . This might shed some light on this thread for me at least . If I find anything useful I will post . Thanx

 

[Mike Irwin]

Para,

The ultimate resolution of just about any ongoing dispute that results in an impass, as it was in this case, is legal action. Neither the homeowner nor the association would budge, so a civil suit was filed.

To suggest that the courts have no jurisdiction would probably result in your attorney chuckling and explaining to you why the court does have jurisdiction to rule on the dispute.

Unless both you and the association have agreed, in writing, to waive legal action in favor of a 3rd-party arbiter, the fact that someone has filed a lawsuit against you gives the court jurisdiction provided, of course, that the suit is filed in the right court and in the correct jurisdiction.

I've got some association documents on my desk right now for my HOA.

It's very clearly stated in our documents that the association can, in cases of dispute:

1. Assess additional charged and penalties for non-compliance.

2. Place a lien against the title to the property.

3. File suit.

In the 7 years that I've been here, we've resorted to No. 1 on probably a two dozen occasions, No. 2 on perhaps 6 occasions, and No. 3 on 1 occasion.

On the occasion that we filed suit, the association won, as the homeowner was found to be in violation of the covenants of the association (he was running an auto repair business in the common area parking lot).

 

[TexasVet]

When you buy a home where there is an association with covenants, you sign a legally binding contract to abide by the rules. If you break the contract you can be sued in civil court. If you lose the suit you will be ordered to live up to YOUR agreement. If you fail to do so you are in contempt of court and will be fined. I owned in a townhouse complex with restrictions. I signed the contract and I lived by the rules. I knew it was only for a few years until I could get out of town onto some real land. But whether I liked all the rules or not, it was MY name and honor on that contract, so I lived up to it until I could get the heck out of Houston. Now I can do anything I want on my land. The point is that this guy Signed a contract and then failed to honor his word and that does not sound like someone I wish to live near or support, vet or not. My honor still demands I maintain the respect that the name my father gave me earned in the past generations. Of course that may seem an outdated concept to many of the newer generations, but I hope not among Patriots, for in the long run it is the HONOR of this country we stand for.

 

[Mr. James]

Hello, Mike Irwin,

Sorry for the tardy reply. Now, why do you want to read our rules and regs? So you can adopt the same onerous restrictions yourselves?

If I can find the damn things, you're welcome to them. I call our homeowners association the Paint Nazis, because their only apparent activity is to patrol the neighborhood periodically and then write snotty letters to homeowners telling them to paint their trim, or weed their gardens. (That's not fair; they keep the pool clean...and the trains run on time.) I laughed out loud when I read the covenants six years ago. They regulate everything from how many broken washing machines you can have on your front porch (zero) to the volume of urine you can discharge at one time (0.75 l). Also, if you take one look at all the commercial vehicles, trailers, boats, derelict cars, etc. parked in our development, you know the average resident used his copy of the covenants to wrap fish.

 

[Poodleshooter]

You guys want covenant hell? Go to Columbia,MD. After doing contracting there for 2 years, I learned that our business, to a great extent ,was propped up by the "required maintenance" agreements the folks who lived there faced. Columbia was a great place to be a businessman, but IMHO, losing your right to determine what happens on your own property to someones arbitrary perception of what constitutes "real estate value" is no better than having an intrusive government control your property. I heard enough comments to the effect of "Dear God, he's painted his house oyster shell white, not high hiding white-it'll ruin our property values!" while painting in Columbia. I'll pass on that kind of living, thanks.

 

[ATTICUS]

On the flip side: My mother's neighborhood has few restrictions. Her neighbor's yard contains at least 5 cars/trucks - a camper - a boat- a food service trailer (he sells food at county fairs,etc) a dog run for his barking Dobies and Rottwielers, etc. Get the picture. This bozo moved into a neat, quiet neighborhood and singlehandedly altered the property values, and "curb appeal" of the entire street. I guess the moral of this story is that, you either have rules or you don't - but you must live with the consequences either way.