Florida shooter

According to an artcle by ABC News the shooter had walked into the FBI office in Alaska, told them he was hearing voices etc. Read here:

http://abcnews.go.com/International...hooting-suspect-mental-health-issues-44616032


Police held the gun until Santiago was released and contacted him about picking up the weapon, which he did on Dec. 8, Tolley said.

Obviously, with 20/20 hindsight that was a mistake. Was it more than a judgmental error? Handing a gun back to an individual that is saying he has mental problems, is hearing voices, and actively contacted authorities himself seems to violate the policy of keeping guns away from mentally disturbed people.

What say you?
 

iraiam

New member
It sounds to me like they did not want to pursue the issue, They could have initiated legal proceedings to have him adjudicated mentally defective, beyond that, you can't just take property or rights away from an individual without due process.

I have no doubt that it would be difficult and expensive to do this, but people keep saying we need to do something, but we don't even try to use what appears to be a functional set of laws that are already in place for this.
 

jmr40

New member
From what I've read that sort of thing isn't uncommon. Almost none ever proves to be a problem. We walk a fine line between keeping guns away from the truly mentally ill and passing laws that can be misused to keep guns away from people who should not have them taken away.

Yea, it was the wrong decision in this case. But based on the info they had and current policy I don't think anyone messed up.
 

iraiam

New member
Let me clarify,I don't think that anyone dropped the ball, the most they probably could have done would be to put an involuntary psychiatric hold on him and see what what came of it, or maybe that is what they did and he came through it "OK", but I have not read that anywhere yet.
 

BarryLee

New member
I suppose you could also say it was another failing of the VA, but I’m not familiar enough with this case or the system to really say.

I also noticed a few media sources expressing shock that a law abiding citizen can actually travel with a firearm. I suppose the anti-gun crowd might see this as an opportunity to go after some “low hanging fruit” and twist public opinion in an effort to implement more restrictions associated with airports.
 
Buck, you have your opinion. I respect that, and if the mod's shut it down thats fine.

My reasoning for wanting to discuss this incident is based on the common statements that "....the many laws that are on the books are not enforced...." which is true. It is difficult for me to visualize a scenario where a disturbed person goes to authorities because he is having mental problems, he is in contact more than once, yet he is given back his firearm. How much more can an individual do, and how little did the law enforcement people do?
 

thallub

New member
Was it more than a judgmental error?


Considering the fact that Santiago had an unresolved domestic violence charge against him, the decision to return his gun was industrial strength dumb.
 

bn12gg

New member
A domestic violence charge should have restricted him from a gun -- hearing voices not so much. What did the voices say to him??

.02. David. :rolleyes:
 

RickB

New member
I also noticed a few media sources expressing shock that a law abiding citizen can actually travel with a firearm.

The last news report I heard said the guy's only luggage was the gun case; you can't have the gun and ammo in the same case, so where did the ammo come from?
The case that contains the pistol is supposed to be inside another case - typically, you'd put a locked pistol case inside your also-locked suitcase - so maybe the guy had a single checked bag that contained both the cased pistol and the ammo.
 
jmr40 said:
Yea, it was the wrong decision in this case. But based on the info they had and current policy I don't think anyone messed up.
I'm going to disagree with you -- subject to the caveat that I know only what information I have been fed by the media.

First, he went to the FBI making claims that a U.S. intelligence agency was controlling his mind and forcing him to read ISIS propaganda. The FBI handed him off to a mental health clinic for an evaluation (not an involuntary, adjudicated, commitment). I understand that the FBI is not in the mental health business, BUT -- there were definitely some triggers in there, such as "intelligence agencies," "forced," and "ISIS." It seems the FBI was only too happy to hand him off and wash their hands of him, which was (in retrospect) a mistake. With all the concern these days about lone wolf, self-radicalized Islamist terrorists, IMHO any rational FBI agent would have heard "ISIS" and started looking at what this guy has been doing, and who he has been doing it with. Which should have quickly led to the fact he was recently kicked out of the National Guard. That should raise its own questions. So I think the FBI dropped the ball.

Then we get to the shrinks. Four days really is not a lot of time to evaluate someone with deep-seated psychoses and/or neuroses, but that's what the law allows. They have to do the best they can. In this case, it certainly appears that they blew it. However, at least some of the articles have suggested that he was under on-going treatment in Alaska. So maybe it wasn't the shrinks in the evaluation clinic who screwed the pooch, but the shrink who was handling the on-going therapy. He or she should certainly have recognized that this was a person who should not have access to firearms, and reported him to NICS. I don't say that lightly, because I am a Vietnam veteran and I dread to notion that the VA or the SSA might try to strip me of my 2A rights at any time if I say the wrong thing. But, come on ... an intelligence agency is controlling his mind, and forcing him to watch ISIS propaganda? And that didn't raise any red flags to a shrink? Really?

Then there are the police. They took the hand-off from the FBI and sent him to be evaluated. They had possession of his gun. How did they NOT see that he had a domestic violence charge pending? They gave him back his gun!

And then we learned recently that he flew from Alaska to Florida on a one-way ticket. Folks, YEARS ago it was established that one-way tickets were a strong hint of possible terrorist intentions. Here we had a guy flying with a one-way ticket and a firearm. Why didn't THAT set off some red flags?

In short, I think there's plenty of blame to spread around in this case, and none of it should result in any new anti-gun laws that further penalize those of us who are honest, sane, and benign. But, being that this is the world we're in, I expect to see the myriad lapses ignored or swept under the carpet and more anti-gun laws passed, because that's the easy way for politicians to appear to be doing something instead of trying to figure out how to plug the obvious holes in the dike. It's easier to blame it on GUNZ! than it is to address underlying, systemic issues.
 
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Good points. Aguila. We are, as gun owners, at the mercy of the deranged killers that use firearms in the sense that anti-gun advocates want more laws, fewer guns, and ever more restrictive regulations. It is highly probable that many potential incidents are circumvented with no publicity, and thus are under the radar. But these mass shootings are fuel to feed the anti-gun fire.

This shooter was at least offering himself to authorities as he seemed to recognize he was not centered. But he fell throught the cracks. And it was deadly in the end.

The Aurora, Co. Theatre shooter was under psychiatric care, told his therapist about fantasies that he eventually made reality. There was an opportunity to subvert him, but it was squandered. These killers, at some point will drive the legislative and regulatory mechanisms to keep safe and sane gun owners from their right to own and use guns.
 
It seems I'm not alone in my view:

http://www.sun-sentinel.com/opinion...uderdale-airport-shooting-20170107-story.html

I don't agree that a move to allow firearms in baggage claim areas is "misguided," but this article originated in Florida, and I learned as a result of this incident that Florida state law prohibits firearms anywhere in airport terminals. This reporter would probably be horrified to learn that in most (if not all) other states this is already legal -- firearms in most states are prohibited only on the concourse side of the security screening.

Colorado Redneck said:
These killers, at some point will drive the legislative and regulatory mechanisms to keep safe and sane gun owners from their right to own and use guns.
And then the mass killers will just switch to using bombs or eighteen wheelers. The problem will remain unaddressed, because the politicians copped out and refused to face the reality that the problem is people, not implements. I try to remind people that the worst school massacre in United States history was in Bath Township. Michigan, in (IIRC) 1927. The weapon of choice was dynamite. And the only reason the body count in that one wasn't much higher was that the perp had mined both wings of the school, but one side didn't explode as planned.

Guns are not the problem. Evil/crazy people are the problem.
 

tompt

New member
And then we learned recently that he flew from Alaska to Florida on a one-way ticket. Folks, YEARS ago it was established that one-way tickets were a strong hint of possible terrorist intentions. Here we had a guy flying with a one-way ticket and a firearm. Why didn't THAT set off some red flags?

The departure airport may have contributed to that part. Neither one-way tickets, nor firearms, are uncommon on flights to/from Alaska.

I don't know about other airlines, but Alaska Air does not discount round-trip flights. That combined with high change fees makes two one way tickets reasonable when your return date is uncertain.

I've never had anyone bat an eye when flying out of Anchorage with a firearm. It seems like they see a lot of them.
 
Allow those who passed a medical exam and shooting course required to retain a legal CC-Permit to carry anywhere's and everywhere's. Including seated in a airplane. I'd welcome a armed civilian feller verses waiting on LE to show up any day of the week in such situations like seen at that Florida airport.
 
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dahermit

New member
Allow those who passed a medical exam and shooting course required to retain a legal CC-Permit to carry anywhere's and everywhere's.
Bad idea...do you really want a Liberal psychiatrist in charge of your being able to get get/retain a CC-permit?
 

g.willikers

New member
In the old Soviet Union, citizens were thought in need of psychiatric care or worse if they objected to communism.
Be careful what you ask for.
 
Sure Shot McGee said:
Allow those who passed a medical exam and shooting course required to retain a legal CC-Permit to carry anywhere's and everywhere's.
Ignoring for the moment the fact that any requirement for a license or permit is contrary to the 2A, where in the 2A is there any mention of a medical exam or a shooting course? Your proposal just piles more unconstitutional prerequisites on top of an already inconstitutional requirement.
 

RickB

New member
Small arms ammunition, including ammunition not exceeding .75 caliber and shotgun shells of any gauge, may be carried in the same hard-sided case as the firearm.

OK, I've taken that to mean that I can have both my pistol case and my ammo in the same suitcase, but it does appear to mean that you can have the ammo and gun together.
When I've travelled with a gun and ammo, it's usually been the max amount of ammo allowed, so no way it would fit in the pistol case.
 
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