I just got an older Marlin in 30-30. I was advised to go 311 on bullet size due to Marlins rifling. I just ordered a batch of 311 bullets 160 grain from Missouri bullet company at their recommendation. I am planning on the Lee Universal flaring die since this is the only bullet at the time I will be flaring the neck on. Is Missouri correct in the 311 size bullet in cast? Hardness is 18 if I am not mistaken. Missouri whitetail#4 was what they suggested.
Flaring die and cast bullet size
- Thread starter Wendyj
- Start date
ligonierbill
New member
I'm loading Missouri #1 Whitetail 0.309 165 gr RNFP for a newer M94 Winchester. These are Brinell 18. They work well. If Missouri is recommending the #4 0.311 for your rifle, go with it as see how they do. How old is your Marlin?
When using the Lee flare die, set it so the bottom edge of the bullet juuuuuust clears the case mouth edge --- no more.
Since it's tube fed -- and with the die screwed off case mouth contact by a full turn......
- Set the seating stem to seat the bullet at/near the top of the crimp groove
- Back off the seating stem a couple of turns
- Then screw the die down to set your crimp into the groove as you desire (1/2-3/2 turn past contact).
- Screw down the seat stem to meet the bullet -- and lock the lock ring,
You can now seat; de-flare; and crimp in one step from that point on.
.
Since it's tube fed -- and with the die screwed off case mouth contact by a full turn......
- Set the seating stem to seat the bullet at/near the top of the crimp groove
- Back off the seating stem a couple of turns
- Then screw the die down to set your crimp into the groove as you desire (1/2-3/2 turn past contact).
- Screw down the seat stem to meet the bullet -- and lock the lock ring,
You can now seat; de-flare; and crimp in one step from that point on.
.
Last edited:
Thanks mehavey!! I watched a few videos of it but not a lot of content. 5whiskey, I am stuck with them but I used their advise for microgroove rifling. I only ordered 250 which was lowest batch just to try. If they don't work I am not out a whole lot. Shipping would have been better if I knew what the rifle liked. It doesn't like Speer 150 grain bullets so I am going to try cast instead. I'm using about 28-28.8grains of imr 3031 with these. Will see what it likes and go from there.
Don Fischer
New member
Be carefull flaring. You do it to much and your gonna start splitting neck's. Voice of experience! Little bit and try it. It'll be enough when the bullet barely sit's inside the neck.
Jim Watson
New member
I like the Lyman M die. You may have to have one of the type made to order by Buffalo Arms if you have an odd size bullet/barrel combination.
I am shooting .411" bullets in my Browning BPCR .40-65 with nominal .408" groove diameter Badger barrel. (NOT "bore diameter" dammit.)
A Standard Internet Recommended .409" bullet is inaccurate and a .410" is still not as good as .411". I figure it is doing best with bullets at throat diameter, which is said to be a bit large in these guns. As P.O. Ackley said, by the time it has traveled its own length in the rifling it blamed well FITS.
I am shooting .411" bullets in my Browning BPCR .40-65 with nominal .408" groove diameter Badger barrel. (NOT "bore diameter" dammit.)
A Standard Internet Recommended .409" bullet is inaccurate and a .410" is still not as good as .411". I figure it is doing best with bullets at throat diameter, which is said to be a bit large in these guns. As P.O. Ackley said, by the time it has traveled its own length in the rifling it blamed well FITS.
condor bravo
New member
Bottle neck rifle cartridges do get flared for cast bullets if you are opposed to chamferring as I am. I also have to flare .22 Savage Hi-Power cases with jacketed bullets to keep from collapsing the case necks.
I use a Lee Universal Case Expanding Die when loading cast bullets for my 30-30. It seemed to work fine when adjusted just enough to get the bullet started. If you see a bit of lead shavings when seating bullets you probably want a little more flare.
As already mentioned the Lyman M die is excellent, but they are matched to the bullet diameter.
As already mentioned the Lyman M die is excellent, but they are matched to the bullet diameter.
Right. One time I seated a moly-coated bullet in a newly chamfered case, then had to pull it. To my surprise, the sides of the bullet had all the moly scraped clean off. Fresh chamfers have sharp edges and if you don't want to give your lead bullets a shave, you would have to burnish them down to dull first. Flaring will expose the bullet to smoother inside neck brass that doesn't shave it.
I'm with Jim on the M die type flare for loading a rifle. The reason is the step it puts in the case mouth lets the bullet sit straight upright, as shown below. When the bullet is set squarely upright in that step, the seating ram starts in straight, too, resulting in measurable less cartridge runout. You can also tell is it more straight looking at cartridges with a neck long enough that there is a slight bulge where the bullet base meets the resized diameter of the neck. With a straight seated bullet, the slight bulge goes evenly all around the case if the neck wall is also even in thickness, where it is often much less even or sometimes all on one side of the neck if you start with a funnel-shaped flare. In a pistol shooting jacketed bullets, it,s hard to see any difference on paper, but with a rifle that reduction in runout shrinks groups.
The shallow microgrooves are fine with cast bullets as long as they go all the way to the root, which is why a fat bullet was recommended. However, I've seen that go too far, too. You will probably have to shoot groups with some that are .310" and .312" before you can be sure you zeroed in on the best choice. If you slug the bore, for my Marlin (deep Ballard rifling) 0.002" over groove diameter shoots best, but YMMV, so be prepared to experiment.
I'm with Jim on the M die type flare for loading a rifle. The reason is the step it puts in the case mouth lets the bullet sit straight upright, as shown below. When the bullet is set squarely upright in that step, the seating ram starts in straight, too, resulting in measurable less cartridge runout. You can also tell is it more straight looking at cartridges with a neck long enough that there is a slight bulge where the bullet base meets the resized diameter of the neck. With a straight seated bullet, the slight bulge goes evenly all around the case if the neck wall is also even in thickness, where it is often much less even or sometimes all on one side of the neck if you start with a funnel-shaped flare. In a pistol shooting jacketed bullets, it,s hard to see any difference on paper, but with a rifle that reduction in runout shrinks groups.
The shallow microgrooves are fine with cast bullets as long as they go all the way to the root, which is why a fat bullet was recommended. However, I've seen that go too far, too. You will probably have to shoot groups with some that are .310" and .312" before you can be sure you zeroed in on the best choice. If you slug the bore, for my Marlin (deep Ballard rifling) 0.002" over groove diameter shoots best, but YMMV, so be prepared to experiment.
condor bravo
New member
.311 cast bullet is appropriate for a .30-30.
Wendy, if you look at the SAAMI specs, even copper jacketed bullets are allowed to go 0.001" over. The throat can swage them down even more than that, but pressure starts to rise. With the much softer lead bullets you usually can widen your bullets until you can't chamber a round and they still don't cause a problem. For one thing, you're normally driving them with lower pressures so that you would have to do more than fatten the bullet for before they caused a hazard.
I just mentioned in another post that when the industry decided to change .45 Colt barrels over from 0.454" to 0.451", the industry wanted older bullet molds and bullets to continue to work, so they made the chambers for a long time to accommodate the old ones even though the barrel was now narrower. Cylinder throats up at .456" or so were not uncommon for the old lead, and yet those fat bullets went through the newer 0.451" groove barrels just fine.
I just mentioned in another post that when the industry decided to change .45 Colt barrels over from 0.454" to 0.451", the industry wanted older bullet molds and bullets to continue to work, so they made the chambers for a long time to accommodate the old ones even though the barrel was now narrower. Cylinder throats up at .456" or so were not uncommon for the old lead, and yet those fat bullets went through the newer 0.451" groove barrels just fine.
Jim Watson
New member
Seems you are about as likely to run into a .450" cylinder throat on an old .45 Long Colt. Ruger turned out a bunch of modern revolvers with undersize cylinder throats, there was one shop that did little else but ream them to groove (NOT bore, dammit.) diameter plus a bit.
I know what Marlin advertises, but I have not been able to find an example or picture of an original Ballard barrel. I think it is just a term of art meaning "not Microgroove."
I know what Marlin advertises, but I have not been able to find an example or picture of an original Ballard barrel. I think it is just a term of art meaning "not Microgroove."
Yer gonna hate me... but if you have any RCBS pistol dies, see if you can find a 32-20 expander.
It will expand/flare in one step to perfectly fit the dimensions of 0.311 cast.
(It's what I use on my Krag rounds.... also sized 0.311)
It will expand/flare in one step to perfectly fit the dimensions of 0.311 cast.
(It's what I use on my Krag rounds.... also sized 0.311)
Wendyj,
The guys are right in recommending the Lyman Type M Expander Die. Get the one for the .30 Carbine that they sell. Why? Because you can use it for any .30 caliber cartridge from as short as the .30 Carbine, all the way up to the .30-06 simply by adjusting the height of the die.
Don
The guys are right in recommending the Lyman Type M Expander Die. Get the one for the .30 Carbine that they sell. Why? Because you can use it for any .30 caliber cartridge from as short as the .30 Carbine, all the way up to the .30-06 simply by adjusting the height of the die.
Don