Flame Cutting

[azsixshooter]

I was shooting my 686 today at the range and the little forward screw that holds the rear sight base to the top of the gun kept coming loose. I pressed the base down and used my Leatherman Micra to turn the screw without putting too much torque into it as the driver didn't fit the screw the way it should and I didn't want to damage the screw. I figured I better just get a set of gunsmith's screwdrivers from Midway or somewhere like that and really tighten it down good soon so it doesn't work loose.

Now that I'm home and giving my gun a good cleaning and inspection, I'm seeing a lot of flame cutting on the underside of the top strap and it's exactly where that screw is tapped through. I can see the tip of the screw in the hole that comes through above the forcing cone and the flame cut is touching the edge of the screw's hole (tap? I don't know the proper term for a "screw's hole").

I never really noticed that flame cutting before, but this is a previously owned revolver and since I've had it I've shot it a lot with all kinds of different loads including Buffalo Bore Heavy 180gr (no more than 40 rds of the BB). I guess my question is should I be worried about the flame cutting affecting the structural integrity of the top strap? And also, is the flame cutting the likely cause of the screw coming loose after 50 or so 125 gr Remington HPs? I'm just wondering if it's something I should have a smith look at or just the sign of an older, often-fired Magnum. I'm wondering if that screw will continue coming loose even if I tighten it really well with a proper-fitting gunsmithing driver, which I understand are very important when working on guns. Something about being square-bladed vs tapered I think.

Thanks for your opinions, I hope you all have a Happy Thanksgiving tomorrow.

 

[44 AMP]

Flame cutting bogeyman/loose screws

Flame cutting does happen, but the degree is the important thing. Most of the "severe" flame cutting seems to come from the 125gr hot ammo. Take a good look at the area in question. A shallow trench or groove is what normally occurrs. Ordinarily this does not affect the strength of the frame. And, it is a self limiting problem. As the flame cut area deepens, the cutting effect of th hot gases lessens until it stops completely. Again, with no significant loss of frame strength. A good gunsmith, or better yet S&W themselves can tell you for sure if the damage is in any way anything other than cosmetic. Normally it isn't anything to worry over, except for the looks. But look carefully. If you see cracks in the forcing cone of the barrel, that is another matter entirely. See if your local 'smith is a S&W warranty center. Many are, but not all. If in doubt, take the gun to a warranty center, and follow their advice.

As for having a screw loose It happens. There are a couple of things you can do about it. One is check ALL the screws for tightness before you head to the range. All revolvers tend to have some of their screws loosen up with shooting, and magnums are more prone to have this happen than others. Proper fitting screwdriver blades will minimize the possibility of damage to the screw head slots, but you can over torque and damage them if you try. I would recommend a loctite product, "Guntite". Loctite makes many different products, and codes them by colors, red, blue, green, as well as by numbers. Some of them are to keep screws/bolts from loosening due to vibration and allow for removal with proper tools. Others are intended to keep screws in place PERMANENTLY!! If you are not familiar with their products, be careful not to use the wrong one!! Guntite is sold for use on gun screws, and while it keeps them in place very well, you can remove them with a proper fitting screwdriver and a little bit of effort.

Revolver screws (including sight screws) don't need to be as tight as humanly possible, just good & tight (which is just a bit past snug) "800ft/lbs" of torque (even if you could manage it) is neither needed nor a good idea. Just snug, then tight. If they keep loosening up, guntite or a similar product will take care of that, and still let you take them out if necessary. If you overtighten the screw, you can damage it, or the screwhole threads. This is something you want to avoid. If you can't tighten the screw (it screws in, but won't get "tight"), time for a trip to the S&W repairman. Either you or a previous owner tightened it too much. It don't happen alot, but it can happen.

Slightly off (handgun) topic but the worst one I have run into for screw problems by overtightening is the Ruger 10/22. Aluminium reciever, steel scope base, steel screws. Tighten the screws mounting the scope base to the reciever too much, and they will strip the threads from the reciever. Snug is fine for a .22 scope mount, because if you really "tighten" them, you will do damage to the rifle.

Good luck with you S&W, and enjoy it.

 

[azredhawk44]

Nope, get rid of it before it falls apart.

I have a special place in my safe for that gun where the flame-cut topstrap can gently live out the rest of its days (except when I go out shooting with it).

I've heard that smiths and security sixes will "begin" a flame cut especially when shot often with 125gr ammunition, but that the cut will not progress after a certain point and that they are perfectly safe. I may be confusing that with trivia about Dan Wesson and Ruger Redhawk revolvers chambered in .357 maximum though. Nah, The DW and Redhawks in maximum would flame-cut to a point of no return. The others, shooting wimpy old magnums, would be fine.

Let me know if you find a particularly good deal on gunsmith screwdriver / tool sets. It's past time for me to have a set also.

 

[azsixshooter]

I did just recently start shooting this pretty hot 125 gr load, maybe that's why I never saw it before. I had read that it was generally a self-limiting thing, but since it is actually touching the screw hole I thought I'd post here and get some feedback. Thanks guys, appreciate that.

azredhawk44: Thanks again for letting me shoot your sweet revolvers today, that was great. You're a true ambassador of the .44 Mag, you got me wanting one. Or two. Or ten. I'm sure Elmer would be proud of you!

 

[44capnball]

Is that true about the 357 maximum reaching a point of no return? I read somewhere it was hype, ICBW, can't 'member the forum I was lurking in. Thoughts?

How about on the Taurus Raging Bull 454 Casull? A decent sized furrow on a blued one that looks like it was fired a lot, anything to worry about? Worth having, or better to buy a new one instead? The frame still looks very solid, when you hold it to the side the furrow from gas cutting has no depth I can see. Cant tell how many rounds were put thru it, there is some rotational slop on full lockup and some endshake, maybe .005. Recommendations?

 

[Stargazer]

I wonder if a person left that area alone when cleaning and let the carbon build up there, might the flame cutting be arrested or slowed due to the hardness of the carbon?

 

[steveno]

there is going to be some flame cutting with any high pressure revolver. it will go only so far and then stop. it won't cause any safety problems. I think that a sst revolver will resist the cutting better but not eliminate it. the problem with the 357 max was trying to shoot light bullets (less the 158 grains) with ball powders. if you used heavier bullets(158 grain and more) with a powder like 4227 then you had a real shooter. another option is to buy a TC in 357 max and shoot what ever you want which is what I do. a 357 max in a TC is a real good round

 

[Slopemeno]

Ever hear of a gun failing because of flame cutting?

Me neither.

A local range had a .44 Redhawk that they used as a rental gun, and it got TONS of use. One day we were talking about Redhawks for an unrelated reason, and the range owner pulled the same Redhawk out, opened the cylinder, and handed it to me. The forcing cone was an undiscenable, wasted, washed out mess from all the use the gun had gotten. The flame cutting was about 1/32nd deep. There were no sharp edges to the forcing cone at all. It had been in the rental case for years, fired many tens of thousands of full power .44 mag rounds, and they finally sent it back to Ruger for a new barrel. It came back, and spent another couple of years in the rental case.

All use puts wear on your guns. Don't worry about flame cutting.

You should look at one of the Gunsmith's screwdriver sets that Brownells sells. The right tool for the job makes life easy.

And as far as buying a used 686, just think about all the effort you saved by having the other guy break it in for you. Great gun, by the way.

 

[18DAI]

While the 125 grain 357's will cause more wear and tear on a revolver, such as forcing cone erosion, flame cutting and the resulting top strap stretching, in my personal experiece, the flame cutting is self limiting.

Back in the day, an old gunny advised me to "color" the cut with a number 2 pencil. He claimed it would reduce the rate of flame cutting. Regards 18DAI.

 

[Peter M. Eick]

Flame cutting is a fact of life. I am documenting mine on my 357 Max.

This is after about 1200 rnds of hot 4227 and 158 JHP's. It is definitely noticeable, but frankly I expect it to not go too much further as I shoot more. I am switching to heavier bullets (180 grn+) and staying with 4227 for the powder.

If you do some studies on the 357 Max you will find that the Ruger's are somewhat prone to this if the powder chosen is the wrong type. Granular is bad, extruded is good to put it simply.

In your case, check your powder. My bet is it is granular and this may be the root cause of your cutting. Try shooting heavier bullets also.