First Time Shooting Trap Today! (with some questions?)

[GunXpatriot]

Well, as I said, today was the first time I shot trap. Really, it's the first time I've ever shot clays in a "legitimate" setting. Quite a few years ago, probably like 5 or 6, a guy invited my family and another family to shoot clays. He was charging us per shot, so I guess he was just hustling and making some money!

He had what appeared to be a pretty serious rig in his pickup truck. Looking back, I seemed to have shot better haha. We were shooting his Remington Versa Max, or at least I think it was, judging by the colors.

Now yes, this does tie into the questions I mentioned. I (well, my mom) had purchased a Mossberg 500 All-purpose about 5 months ago, and today, was the first time it had been shot. Now when I was in the store, I was going to go with a non-ported barrel, however, all they had was ported. After a little in-store research, I figured, since it was for sporting, it didn't matter much. I'd planned on having it double as a HD gun as well, but now, I'm not sure how I'd like to go about it.

Anyway, the guy in the LGS told me porting was good because it reduced muzzle climb and reduced recoil, or so he said.

The last time I shot my Marlin XL7 .30-06, a few months ago, and the time before that, which was about 10 months ago, I remember after just 20 rounds, I couldn't move my arm. I had the stock gun, with a 3-9x40 scope, which isn't adding a WHOLE lot of weight.

Back when I shot that Versa Max, although I was only about 12, I remember the recoil being fairly punishing. After only about 15 rounds, I couldn't take it anymore. Every shot after 10 hurt. A lot. I was just trying to stay "cool" and just finish the last rounds.

Anyway, so I'm shooting this ported Mossberg 500 All-purpose with a 28 inch barrel, and it was actually very comfortable to shoot. I shot 50 rounds. Now, after 50 rounds, I started to feel slightly uncomfortable, but I could have easily shot another box. What was bothering more, was the fatigue in my left arm from holding up the shotgun at my side between shots. For my last 5 shots or so, I could hardly lift the gun. Honestly, I was glad when I was done! When I was eating, both arms were giving me a little trouble a shaking a slight. ANYWAY....

I shot 15 the first time, and next, I didn't have enough shells for another round, so I just went solo for 20 rounds and shot 16/20. I also was getting the hang of "swinging past" the target, or whatever you'd call it. Even still, I would find myself snapping to the target like it was stationary. I was using Federal value pack "Multi-purpose" loads sold in the box of 100, like this.

http://www.walmart.com/ip/Federal-Ammunition-12-Gauge-3-DRAM-100ct/17757345#Product+Reviews

To my surprise, this ammo was actually hotter than other target loads I'd bought to try, but I figured I shouldn't switch ammo mid-session, so I just brought 50 rounds of those.

So my real question is, does a ported barrel really make that much of a difference recoil-wise? I understand the physics behind reducing muzzle climb, but does that reduced climb have anything to do with less felt recoil? Is that simply a matter of me being 12 vs me being 17 now? Like I said, that .30-06 had some stout recoil for me, I could only fire 1/5th the ammo with the same level of comfort. Can anyone explain this?

Trap shooting really isn't easy to do, or at least not like these pros can do it. And if there's one thing that I found really satisfying, it's getting a solid hit and shattering a clay, rather than chipping it or just breaking it into a few pieces.

So yeah, I just wanted to share my experience and ask that question, is all. Actually, I made this post kind of long, but I guess I just had a really good time!

Now I'd like to try Skeet, which I hear is just a whole 'nother animal!

 

[Method]

Be careful with skeet...you might end up like me and get addicted. As it turns out, when I first got into skeet shooting just about a year ago, I found a good used sporting shotgun with ported barrels.

Personally, I didn't notice any difference with porting. Some people say they do, others not so much. In my limited experience, porting of the barrel is more trouble than its worth. I've found that cleaning the ports is tedious and problematic. The best way to reduce recoil (again, only a year of experience here) I've found is in changing my shells. Even with a 12ga, I will only shoot 1oz loads instead of 1 1/8oz. That seems to make a big difference for me. Many skeet shooters will still use their 20ga in 12ga matches because it is easier to shoot (less recoil). Statistically, they do as well if not better in 20ga.

Next up, what is the pad you've got on the stock? Most factory pads aren't really meant for excessive shooting. Getting a new pad installed can make a huge difference as well. Kick-eez and Limbsaver are two brands often recommended.

Oh yeah...one final thought on porting. Three of the top skeet gun brands are Krieghoff, Kolar, and Blaser. None of them use ported barrels...and those are the brands you'll see most national skeet champions using and selling.

 

[GunXpatriot]

That's actually a good tip, about changing loads. I may look into that, if it starts to bother me.

Yeah, I've only got Mossberg's factory pad on. It really is kind of hard and stiff. Even still, it didn't bother me TOO much. If I were to start shooting slugs or 3" magnums for example, I bet that would change pretty quick...

Even with the Marlin XL7's somewhat "spongy" recoil pad, it really is just painful to shoot. Thanks, if anything, I'll at least look for a good pad for that gun. If I find I'm wanting to shoot extended sessions with clays, like 100 rounds, I will undoubtedly get a better pad for the Mossberg 500.

I checked all of those brands, all beautiful. If I get more into this, I'd eventually look into one of them, I bet. I actually find it interesting that none of them come with porting. I met an older man who I'd been shooting with. He actually was using his Beretta DT(something), I forget. Well I beleive he spent like $9000+ out the door with extra barrels included, but I beleive base price was like $8,xxx.

From afar, I didn't notice any porting, even though two others who were shooting O/U's had porting on their shotguns. I also beleive a couple of olympic shooters last summer were using guns in Beretta's... er... "Pigeon" line. Anyway, now that I'm more aware of these things, it appears that none of them come that way, at least in pictures.

It makes me wonder if porting is more oriented for field use, rather than sporting clays, although, if they really do improve follow up shots, it would seem they'd come standard in both...

If they were more for field use, I'd imagine "all-purpose" guns like the M500 All-purpose would come with them, but... I dunno...

Even still, if some of the most high quality shotgun manufacturers around aren't shipping ported barrels, and the pros are still dominating, it obviously can't be too big of a trade-off.

 

[Jim Watson]

There are considerable numbers of Sporting Clays guns with ported barrels.
They do help on recoil but not a whole lot. Not real common, but not unknown in Trap and Skeet guns. The Browning Cynergy Trap O/U has ported barrels, for example.

The main thing to do to reduce recoil is to shoot a gas operated automatic.
Remington, Beretta, and Browning are the most popular.

Me? My main Trap gun is an old Remington 1100; gas operated AND ported with a squishy pad.

 

[Virginian]

Porting is NOT popular on field guns because of the noise factor. No one is shooting around my dog with a ported gun, and all my hunting acquaintances feel the same way. On a range everyone should have hearing protection so it doesn't matter. I don't see where they help recoil or anything else, but some people swear by them - especially the ones who install them or are sponsored by them - so take your pick.
I don't know what kind of shells you were shooting, but any gas semi auto should have had less recoil than a Mossberg 500, which is a pretty stiff recoiling gun.

 

[BigD_in_FL]

Porting does nothing on a shotgun except cost you more. There isn't enough pressure to be affected by the porting - they DO make it louder for folks on either side of you.

Here are two brochures for trap and skeet with pointers

After you try those, then you have 5-stand and sporting clays to really get you going.........

 

[GunXpatriot]

Virginian, I kind of forgot about that.

Maybe they were heavy loads/magnums. I wonder if, let's say it was 1-1/4 oz. Method claims that he notices the difference between 1oz and 1-1/8.

Remington does say the VersaMax chambers 3 1/2 inch shells, but who the hell is shooting 3 1/2 inch for clays? I mean it seems like people don't even shoot them for turkey that often, let alone for busting a target.

But could the difference be that big in a heavier/hotter load in a semi auto vs a "standard", if not slightly hotter load in a pump? It could very well be that I'm more recoil tolerant now, but it doesn't change that I can't shoot more than 15 rounds .30-06 even with a decent factory recoil pad.

This is why I was thinking the porting was the reason for such reduced recoil, and even that seemed strange.

Jim, you must hardly feel the thing!

 

[GunXpatriot]

BigD, thanks for that info!

 

[BigJimP]

Its my opinion that porting reduces muzzle rise ...making it a little easier to find the target between the 1st and 2nd shot - and does virtually nothing to reduce recoil.

In Trap - where you're probably shooting singles ...it would make very little difference to have a ported barrel ...but in my primary sporting clays and skeet guns, I prefer a gun that is ported(and I'll use that same gun in the field for live birds).

To reduce recoil -- adding about 1 lb in weight will reduce recoil about 20% ...( my primary 12ga shell for any kind of clay targets is a 1oz of 8's at around 1200 fps ) ....and that should soften up the recoil a lot.

As much as this is beating you up ...it doesn't sound like the gun fits you very well ...or you need some coaching ( or both ) on better fundamentals. Search out some of the guys at your local club to give you a hand. Getting beat up ---isn't part of the game / most adult males can easily shoot 200 targets a day with no bruising or discomfort - if the gun fits them correctly and they're mounting it correctly.

 

[Method]

One thing I forgot to mention. When you look at the most expensive Skeet guns (Krieghoff and Kolar are the top), you might see that their stocks and overall construction are a lot heavier. When I tried them out at a specialty store, I was amazed at the weight difference between a specialty skeet gun from them and a sporting gun from Winchester or Browning. I think some of that weight may also reduce felt recoil in those models, which is why they don't have ported barrels.

Has anybody seen porting on a Beretta or Perrazi? Those are the brands which seem to dominate international competition.

 

[BigD_in_FL]

Browning is the ONLY maker who ports barrels - THAT should tell you something; they are also NEVER used by the top shooters in trap, skeet or sporting clays - that also should tell you something.
I'll disagree with my friend Big Jim on this, because IF it did what they say, then you WOULD see it on every maker's target guns. You don't even see it on specialty built pigeon guns who use the heaviest "target" load around - 3-3/4 DE (1300 fps) of 1-1/4 oz shot, and they DO use their second shot every time whether or not they need it.
Perazzi dominates the Olympics and has for about 50 years - even the Germans and Americans use their guns. A gun writer friend of mine asked one of the top folks at Connecicut Shotgun Manufacturing (who makes some of the nicest and most expensive shotguns around) who makes the best target gun, regardless of price - and without hesitation, said "Perazzi". When Olympic Gold is on the line, international success, etc., that is the gun chosen and no one has ported barrels.
There must be a good reason in there somewhere.................

 

[BigJimP]

oh come on now ...don't call me "Bi" .....and least change it to "Big" ....

big guys have feelings too....even if we shoot Brownings...

 

[GunXpatriot]

You're right, in the last few days, I hear people talking about xxx/200 clays. Now today, my arm is pretty sore, and lifting it causes discomfort. It doesn't feel "bruised" though, it's strange. Like the .30-06 will break blood vessels in my arm, as did that semi, many years ago.

This feels more like I overworked muscle, rather than being bruised, kind of hard to explain. In fact, my cheek feels pretty beat up too... I'm going to need a few days. It's strange that 50 rounds beat me up like this. First off, I think I may look into a box or two 1oz loads to try. I'll go out and compare them to 1 1/8. I doubt the 1/8 oz is going to make a difference, At the same speed, if you're missing with a 1oz, I doubt you'd hit it with the extra 1/8th.

Another thing would be a better recoil pad. It really does seem that I'm not very good at tolerating recoil, as much as I enjoy shooting. Kind of dissapointing. I wonder if Wolf's Law applies here.

The more/heavier recoil you shoot, the less it will affect you. Muay Thai fighters in Thailand kick banana trees until they can break baseball bats with their shins. Shaolin Monks do the same for multiple parts of the body, including their neck, until they can sustain hanging. Sounds pretty crazy actually...

So yeah, I wonder if that would mean anything here. Shall I just go and shoot more often? I bet over time, you can build at least some recoil tolerance.

But right now, I'll definitely look into 1oz loads. By the way, what would ideal shot size be? How about choke?

Yesterday, I was running (as I said) 1-1/8th #7.5 which is apparently 3 DE. I was running the modified choke that was already pre-installed. It seemed to be what most people recommend. If you are using anything from 7.5-9, I would think it's more of a case of "you either hit it or you don't, shot size won't matter". Would that be right? Was the modified choke correct to use?

 

[GunXpatriot]

Patterning and practice on a ground target may help too... I found it strange that on some targets, I'd be right on the mark and miss, while sometimes hit. On the other hand, I would be way low on the beads and shatter the clay into 100 pieces... Plenty of work for me to do if I want to become a competent clay shooter.

Or even be competent with birds... Which I was going to look into.

 

[BigD_in_FL]

Just saw that Jim - changed it. It's my damn ten thumbs trying to use a laptop!

 

[BigD_in_FL]

For practice, I went from 1oz to 7/8 and now to 3/4 oz at 1210 fps - per a chronograph, in a 8.25# O/U Browning (see Jim, I use one as well). For registered competition, I use 1oz factory loads, some of which are running 1300fps. I can REALLY feel that difference, and after 100 shots at sporting targets, I need a break.

If you are getting cheek slap, you have a fit issue and just slapping on a recoil pad will not make that go away - a visit to a good stockfitter will solve that as he will use a "try gun" which has the ability to change LOP, pitch, drop at heel and comb, etc.

For shot size, it is hard to beat #8s for about anything (except rabbit targets at distance). Olympic ammo is limited to 24 grams, which is right about 7/8 oz, and typically runs 1300 fps. Remember that Olympic trap targets are made physically harder as they are traveling about 62 mph versus US trap targets at about 40 mph

 

[pete2]

Porting is a royal pain to use, I won't do it again. I can't tell any difference in recoil. I would suggest an older used Rem. 1100 gun. Recoil is super soft with target loads like lite AA loads and it's bearable with the cheap 1300 fps bargain loads. A used 1100 gun can be had for a reasonable price especially one with a fixed choke. Get an improved cyl. for skeet and a full for trap. My skeet gun is an old field gun that was originally modified choke. I had it reamed out to I.C. for about 20.00. I do have an 870 trap gun, shoots great but it does kick with the promo loads from Academy. Not so bad with target loads.

 

[Method]

Some of your initial impressions may also stem from conditioning. Mounting a sporting shotgun 100+ times and carrying it around isn't something our normal exercise routines emphasize. Over time and practice you get used to it. When If I start shooting again in the spring, I'm usually a little sore after my first six boxes. However, within a month I feel perfectly fine.

I only have a 12ga and have to train with it. However, just about everybody I shoot with who has a 20ga or a series of sub-guage tubes trains with a much lighter 20ga or 28ga load. They'll even use it in doubles or the 12ga competition. It's amazing what reducing loads will do for longevity of your shoulder.

FYI: Because I really got into skeet last year I also got into reloading. I find it fun, and it allows me to customize my loads to lighter recoils. Granted, that's usually only cost effective if you're going to shoot a lot though.

If you try out skeet and really get into it, I highly recommend looking at joining and competing with the NSSA. They divide shooters into various levels, so you'll always be competing against similar skill shooters. Plus, I've found my local NSSA community to be exceptionally friendly and welcoming.

 

[GunXpatriot]

~7/8 at 1300fps for Olympics?! Undoubtedly picking up some 1oz and 7/8ths for some testing. I actually have to visit a gunsmith/LGS this weekend. He has a 200 yard rifle range, 50 yard pistol, a trap setup, etc. I might as well grab some ammo from him and see what's what with this thing.

On MidwayUSA, all of the 7/8th loads are 1200fps, and seem to be minimum Dram Equivalent. They are considered low recoil loads, but I can't imagine 100fps faster are much more punishing.

Also, what is the logic in making "value pack" loads slightly hotter than standard target or hunting loads? You'd think they want to save powder or something...

So as I said, the 1oz and even 7/8th oz shouldn't hinder your shooting too much, should it? I mean, if you're shattering a clay with one load, you should be shooting well with a lighter load at same velocity, correct?

Which leads into the question... Is there a such thing as a lucky pellet? What I mean is, can a stray pellet in a heavier load have a better chance of hitting if the shooter is off, compared to a lighter load? If you chip a target, scoring wise, it counts as a hit, correct? If one wants to become a better shooter, should you only consider a shattered, or at least broken target a "good hit"? I doubt those "chips" are going to do much to a bird in the field for example. This especially with something like a pheasant.

 

[BigD_in_FL]

Most studies that I have seen tend to support that slower ammo (the 1200 fps stuff) tend to hold its patterns better - especially the central core - than faster loads. Going TOO fast can actually results in a blown pattern that is so large and uneven that there are holes big enough for pheasants, let alone clay targets, to slip through.

The best way to reduce recoil is three fold - the gun must completely FIT, shoot the heaviest gun you can handle, shoot the lightest loads that work well in YOUR gun with the choke you need for your game; that is just pure physics. FELT recoil, aka KICK, can also be eased through the use of a gas gun action, and a good recoil system (there are many)