Firearms Tactical Institute?

dairycreek

New member
I came across a website by the firearms Tactical Institute. It publishes tactical reports on the performance of ammo on wound production, stopping power, etc. A book report is really critical of Marshall and Sanow's work. Does anybody know anything about this organization? Its URL is www.firemarmstactical.com.
 
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olazul

Guest
So you must really enjoy the sound when that can of worms pops open. There is alot of Fackler vs Marshall & Sannow discussion on the TFL. Take a look under triton ammo in the handguns forum.

enjoy,
olazul
 

Walt Welch

New member
Yep, BOHICA. The Facklerites, with the dashing Rich Lucibella in the forefront, and the Marshall/Sanow/Towert camp (no, I am NOT in the forefront of either camp)clash once again.

Here are some other URL's so you can obtain further viewpoints from each side (when you are at the site you mentioned, be sure and read the Tactical Brief of July 98, which deals with the autopsy results and reconstruction of, the 1986 Miami FBI shoot out.).

http://www.greent.com/40Page/ good website with different ammo data and comparisons, although this is a Facklerite site.

http://www.incose.com/stop/ This webpage is the official Towert/Marshall/Sanow site.

Gun Tests, which doesn't have a website, publishes reviews of firearms which are generally considered fair and accurate, however their ammunition testing has been deemed totally defective, as well as the ammunition testing done by the American Rifleman. The Facklerites are the ones who have made these evaluations of the ammo testing by GT and AR.

Happy reading, but be prepared for invective, rhetoric, character assination, nit picking, and scathing attacks on the other viewpoint. :) Walt Welch
 

boing

New member
AND HOW!

Everytime I see an elected official ridiculed by some stand-up comedian or talk show host, I think, "In some countries, that would be a death penalty offense!", and I appreciate THIS country all the more. (Now, if only those officials didn't DESERVE it so much, we might get somewhere!)

-boing
 

olegunftr

New member
Sure you are not refering to the "international Wound Ballistics Association. Fackler isn't my best bud but I tend more to agree with him. I like Evan a lot better personally, he is a great guy, but I have technical/scientific reservations about his theory. Therefore I'm not impressed by ultra high velocity

------------------
Vinny
 

David

New member
One very minor thing about Fackler that brings doubt, was his comments about the Kennedy assasination. He referred to a test on a human skull filled with pig brains(?) and white paint, shot with the infamous 6.5 Carcano. What he didn't mention is that the muzzle to skull distance was reportedly about 39 inches?!?! How does that accurately compare to the real shooting distance, and it's associated effect on the human skull?
Please e-mail if anybody really knows for sure.
 
David-
Despite Dr. Welch's attempts to draw me into this no-win debate between Fackler and Sanow/Towert, I've attempted to stay out of it.

You are evidently referring to a 30 (or so) page anecdotal recreation of the Kennedy assassination, published in 3 articles through 2 issues of the IWBA. Two of these articles were written by John K. Lattimer, MD, ScD and others including, Jon Lattimer, MD, Gary Lattimer, MD, Erich Hubner of the College of Surgeons at Columbia and others. Fackler wrote the third. You seem to be confusing the three.

In one by Lattimer et al, a human skull packed with animal brain was used to disprove the frangible bullet theory. I don't believe this article was intended to "replicate" the Kennedy assassination as the frangibles used were of a .22 caliber. Rather it was used to demonstrate the concussive effects of frangibles in general.

Indeed, if Kennedy had been hit by a frangible, we couldn't replicate the ballistics today as we wouldn't know the make or caliber of bullet. Therefore, anyone who purported to do so would be in error.

The one article written by Fackler was intended to shed light on the oft cited "pristine" nature of the single "magic" bullet that hit Connally's radius (wrist). You're correct that the distance is not mentioned....what is metioned is the following:
<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><HR>
To estimate the striking velocity of the 6.5mm Carcano bullet as it struck Governor Connally's wrist, I took into account the amount of velocity the bullet lost in the air before it reached JFK, the length of tissue travel in both JFK and Connally... I then consulted several wound ballistics papers.... and completed my averaging and interpolations using the ballistics formula to determine projectile retardation... The estimate I arrived at was 1000 to 1100 ft/s. I would not argue with any estimate that was outside these limits by up to +/- 150 ft/s.
[/quote]
<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><HR>Bullet velocities were measured while lowering powder charges until the appropriate powder charge was obtained.
[/quote]

In other words, Fackler didn't shoot a human skull but a cadaver arm (several in fact). He used a commonly accepted police forensic method for estimating terminal velocity and then loaded his projectiles to match those velocities.

Please note that Fackler grants other researchers the leeway to argue that velocity by +/-25%. Please note, also, that Fackler et all present an anecdotal recreation as just that...not as a scientifically controlled experiment.

To All Other Posters and Lurkers:
At the risk of insulting those who are personal friends with Ed Sanow, Mas Ayoob or Governor Connally, I point out that the IWBA work appears to lend itself to independent examination, rumination and common sense better than certain other works. I refer here to those volumes which claim the XYZ Bullet offers a 94.3% one shot stop success based on 4 shootings, 3 of which were disputed by the officers at the scene.

Now, if these latter researchers granted us a +/-25% in their results, there might be room for discussion based on common sense....instead we are expected to simply quote them. They are, after all, the "experts".

Rich Lucibella

[This message has been edited by Rich Lucibella (edited 01-02-99).]
 

Jeff Thomas

New member
Rich et al - I'm an amateur, and, right now, understanding who all these players are and what sides they're on is a bit like watching CNN's coverage of the wars in the former Yugoslavia!

This question will be too simplistic, I know, but the Firearms Tactical Institute site seems quite well written. While there is clearly room for argument, in your opinion, <u>if I follow the recommendations from that site will I be buying decent ammo for the protection of myself and my family?</u>

I plan to set a few cases aside for my sons and myself, so this is an 'investment' of sorts. I want to pick the right stock, and I don't want to wait 6 months until I've tested, shot and understood better all of the various arguments. [Why not wait? - because I have so little faith in the current political and legal climate. Perhaps better to buy 90% effective ammo now, then more expensive / less available ammo later? The more I learn from this site and others, the more impressed I am with the speed at which civilian choices for ammo and weapons is being restricted.]

Thank you for your advice. And, I do appreciate that this is clearly an area where reasonable folks can disagree. Take care.
 
Jeff-
My 2 cents will hopefully be the same as all others. The key is shot placement. Any name brand ammunition in any weight will get the job done. When we begin arguing light and fast vs heavy and slow, we all recognize that we're only trying to get that last point or two of edge in stopping power or liability reduction.

That said, buy as much quality ammo as possible, so that you can practice as much as possible and raise the chances of proper shot placement.

You might try Georgia Arms. I've found their Gold Dot bullets to be reliable performers and and relatively hot loads...available in various weights to satisfy anyone's preference. Their new factory ammo is very resonable...cheap enough to allow you to practice a fair amount with your carry load. Their reloads are even cheaper and suitable for practice on a larger scale.
Hope this helps.
Rich
 

Jeff Thomas

New member
Rich - yes, it helps greatly. I suspected as much, and an LEO friend told me the same. However, sometimes, especially when you're pretty 'green' in an area, it pays to move cautiously until you begin to understand the relative strength and importance of different schools of thought. I will continue to follow your debates with much interest.

Thanks. Have a good weekend.
 
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