FFL to FFL

T

the blur

New member
I transfered a pistol from FL to my home state. FFL to FFL.
The FFL shipped it ground, with the USPS.
Is this legal ?
I thought it had to go air freight ?
 
D

Doyle

New member
Perfectly legal. FFLs can use USPS for handguns while ordinary people can only use USPS for long guns.
 
A

Aguila Blanca

Staff
the blur said:
Air freight, Ground USPS doesn't matter?
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FFLs can ship by U.S. Mail. Non-FFLs cannot. Ground or air doesn't matter. The reality is that most mail travels by air anyway.

For the rest of us, I don't think you really mean "air freight." Air frieght is for large, heavy items that get put on cargo planes with a fork lift. I think you mean FedEx or UPS overnight or second day air. Federal regulations allow us non-FFLs to ship handguns by "common carrier," which is what FedEx and UPS are (not "air freight"). The federal law is satisfied if the handgun goes by ground, but FedEx and UPS have their own rules requiring expedited shipment by air. The reason is that such shipments are in their care for less time and are more carefully tracked, so there's less chance a handgun will be stolen by their employees.
 
J

johnwilliamson062

Moderator
for less time and are more carefully tracked, so there's less chance a handgun will be stolen by their employees.
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One must realize the package handlers at these facilities are not all the cream of the crop. The compensation isn't great, especially when one can come in to work and be sent home after 45 minutes b/c it was a light night. The ones with interest know the addresses of all the major firearms service centers/retailer, jewelry places, and drug suppliers.
When I worked at a distribution center 10+ years ago, not on the sorting floor, there were a number of policies in place to safeguard packages.

Keep in mind federal law does dictate one must meet all the restrictions of the carriers policy. So, if you think you are smart and don't tell them what you are sending to get a cheaper rate, you are breaking federal law.
 
F

Frank Ettin

Administrator
....Keep in mind federal law does dictate one must meet all the restrictions of the carriers policy. So, if you think you are smart and don't tell them what you are sending to get a cheaper rate, you are breaking federal law.
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Citation please.

But in any case, the tariffs of UPS and FedEx require verbally telling the counter person that the package contains a gun (UPS for handguns and FedEx for all guns). Those tariffs are part of the shipper's contract with the carrier. If you don't comply, you have violated that contract and given the carrier a legal basis upon which to decline to honor a claim if the gun is lost or damaged in transit.
 
F

Frank Ettin

Administrator
johnwilliamson062 said:
https://www.atf.gov/firearms/qa/may-nonlicensee-ship-firearm-common-or-contract-carrier
That says you have to tell them. I'm pretty sure the law cited there will actually say something closer to what I said concerning following the following their policies.
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I figured that's what you were relying on. But since you didn't look at the actual statutes or regulations, you didn't realize that the ATF's answer to that FAQ is wrong according to the statutes.

So the ATF FAQ reads (emphasis added):
May a nonlicensee ship a firearm by common or contract carrier?

A nonlicensee may ship a firearm by a common or contract carrier to a resident of his or her or her own State or to a licensee in any State. A common or contract carrier must be used to ship a handgun. In addition, Federal law requires that the carrier be notified that the shipment contains a firearm or ammunition, prohibits common or contract carriers from requiring or causing any label to be placed on any package indicating that it contains a firearm and requires obtaining written acknowledgement of receipt.

[18 U.S.C. 922(a)(2)(A), 922(a)(5), 922(e) and (f); 27 CFR 478.30 and 478.31]
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But actually none of the cited federal statutes or regulations require (with one narrow exception) that the shipper notify the carrier that the package contains a gun or ammunition.

So let's look at the statutes and regulations cited by the ATF in their answer to the FAQ.

  1. 18 USC 922(a)(2)(A) reads:
    (a) It shall be unlawful—

    (1) ...

    (2) for any importer, manufacturer, dealer, or collector licensed under the provisions of this chapter to ship or transport in interstate or foreign commerce any firearm to any person other than a licensed importer, licensed manufacturer, licensed dealer, or licensed collector, except that—

    (A) this paragraph and subsection (b)(3) shall not be held to preclude a licensed importer, licensed manufacturer, licensed dealer, or licensed collector from returning a firearm or replacement firearm of the same kind and type to a person from whom it was received; and this paragraph shall not be held to preclude an individual from mailing a firearm owned in compliance with Federal, State, and local law to a licensed importer, licensed manufacturer, licensed dealer, or licensed collector;​
    ...
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  2. 18 USC 922(a)(5) reads:
    (a) It shall be unlawful—

    ...

    (5) for any person (other than a licensed importer, licensed manufacturer, licensed dealer, or licensed collector) to transfer, sell, trade, give, transport, or deliver any firearm to any person (other than a licensed importer, licensed manufacturer, licensed dealer, or licensed collector) who the transferor knows or has reasonable cause to believe does not reside in (or if the person is a corporation or other business entity, does not maintain a place of business in) the State in which the transferor resides; except that this paragraph shall not apply to (A) the transfer, transportation, or delivery of a firearm made to carry out a bequest of a firearm to, or an acquisition by intestate succession of a firearm by, a person who is permitted to acquire or possess a firearm under the laws of the State of his residence, and (B) the loan or rental of a firearm to any person for temporary use for lawful sporting purposes;...
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  3. 18 USC 922(f) reads:
    (f)

    (1) It shall be unlawful for any common or contract carrier to transport or deliver in interstate or foreign commerce any firearm or ammunition with knowledge or reasonable cause to believe that the shipment, transportation, or receipt thereof would be in violation of the provisions of this chapter.

    (2) It shall be unlawful for any common or contract carrier to deliver in interstate or foreign commerce any firearm without obtaining written acknowledgement of receipt from the recipient of the package or other container in which there is a firearm.​
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  4. 27 CFR 478.30 reads:
    § 478.30 Out-of-State disposition of firearms by nonlicensees.

    No nonlicensee shall transfer, sell, trade, give, transport, or deliver any firearm to any other nonlicensee, who the transferor knows or has reasonable cause to believe does not reside in (or if the person is a corporation or other business entity, does not maintain a place of business in) the State in which the transferor resides: Provided, That the provisions of this section:

    (a) shall not apply to the transfer, transportation, or delivery of a firearm made to carry out a bequest of a firearm to, or any acquisition by intestate succession of a firearm by, a person who is permitted to acquire or possess a firearm under the laws of the State of his residence; and

    (b) shall not apply to the loan or rental of a firearm to any person for temporary use for lawful sporting purposes​
    ....
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  5. Note that there is absolutely no requirement under those three statutes (18 USC 922(a)(2)(a), 18 USC 922(a)(5), or 18 USC 922(f)) or the one regulation (27 CFR 478.30) that the shipper tell the carrier anything. So let's look at the remaining statute (18 USC 922(e)) and regulation (27 CFR 478.31).

  6. 18 USC 922(e) reads (emphasis added):
    (e) It shall be unlawful for any person knowingly to deliver or cause to be delivered to any common or contract carrier for transportation or shipment in interstate or foreign commerce, to persons other than licensed importers, licensed manufacturers, licensed dealers, or licensed collectors, any package or other container in which there is any firearm or ammunition without written notice to the carrier that such firearm or ammunition is being transported or shipped; except that any passenger who owns or legally possesses a firearm or ammunition being transported aboard any common or contract carrier for movement with the passenger in interstate or foreign commerce may deliver said firearm or ammunition into the custody of the pilot, captain, conductor or operator of such common or contract carrier for the duration of the trip without violating any of the provisions of this chapter. No common or contract carrier shall require or cause any label, tag, or other written notice to be placed on the outside of any package, luggage, or other container that such package,
    luggage, or other container contains a firearm.
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  7. 27 CFR 478.31 reads (emphasis added):
    § 478.31 Delivery by common or contract carrier.

    (a) No person shall knowingly deliver or cause to be delivered to any common or contract carrier for transportation or shipment in interstate or foreign commerce to any person other than a licensed importer, licensed manufacturer, licensed dealer, or licensed collector, any package or other container in which there is any firearm or ammunition without written notice to the carrier that such firearm or ammunition is being transported or shipped: Provided, That any passenger who owns or legally possesses a firearm or ammunition being transported aboard any common or contract carrier for movement with the passenger in interstate or foreign commerce may deliver said firearm or ammunition into the custody of the pilot, captain, conductor or operator of such common or contract carrier for the duration of that trip without violating any provision of this part.

    (b) No common or contract carrier shall require or cause any label, tag, or other written notice to be placed on the outside of any package, luggage, or other container indicating that such package, luggage, or other container contains a firearm.

    (c) No common or contract carrier shall transport or deliver in interstate or foreign commerce any firearm or ammunition with knowledge or reasonable cause to believe that the shipment, transportation, or receipt thereof would be in violation of any provision of this part: Provided, however, That the provisions of this paragraph shall not apply in respect to the transportation of firearms or ammunition in in-bond shipment under Customs laws and regulations.

    (d) No common or contract carrier shall knowingly deliver in interstate or foreign commerce any firearm without obtaining written acknowledgement of receipt from the recipient of the package or other container in which there is a firearm: Provided, That this paragraph shall not apply with respect to the return of a firearm to a passenger who places firearms in the carrier's custody for the duration of the trip.
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  8. So under the express language of the statute and regulation cited by ATF to support its response to that FAQ the only time a non-licensee shipper is required to notify the carrier that the package contains a gun or ammunition is when shipping to someone other than an FFL. And --

    • A non-licensee may ship a gun to another non-licensee only under very limited circumstances; and

    • Even though there are a few situations in which a non-licensee may lawfully ship a gun to another non-licensee, neither UPS nor FedEx will under their respective policies accept a gun for shipment by a non-licensee to anyone other than an FFL.

    • But both UPS and FedEx policies require that a non-licensee shipper verbally inform them when shipping a gun.

I suspect that ATF might have fudged a bit on its answer here in order to make it simpler for the non-licensee. If a non-licensee shipper does what ATF suggests he will be providing notice to the carrier in situations in which its not legally required, but at the same time he won't fail to notify the few times it is legally required.

And of course nothing in the ATF's response to the FAQ or the cited statutes or regulations say:
...one must meet all the restrictions of the carriers policy....
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