FBI .45

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Kodiac

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Okay, this has got to be said: What in the world is the FBI doing with our tax dollars?
I mean come on... the agency should just get some Kimbers with a bevelled mag well and use the rest of the money saved to buy each TAC TEAM member a DMPS PANTHER to go with it. Let's be real, they go in with a long gun in hand and the pistol in a holster. Yes I advocate getting the best gun you can afford, but I have always seen Officers choose other guns than the Departments choice. I bet most Officers would rather have a gun stipend to choose there own gun than be given an issued - no matter how good it is. The HK MK23 is a good example. It is a very serious "I kill the Enemy" handgun... but few actual operators use it - going with the pet gun of choice at personal expense rather than use a gun someone else chose for them.
 
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Rob Pincus

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While it is true that "operators" or at least Seal Team 4 (the only one that I can verify...) choose to use the Sig226 instead of the SOCCOM, hardly anyone with any tactical sense would choose to not go into a comabt situation unless everyone had compatible weapons, for many obvious reasons. I am all for officers and soldiers having a say in what they carry, but you are never going to make everyone happy, and everyone should carry the same thing in a tactical organization. Just my opinion.
 
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Kodiac

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A SPECWAR military team, and a team of civilian law enforcment officers are 2 different worlds of operators. I didn't think I had to make that distinction... FBI agents are civilians to any soldiers mind... Military teams go out on missions that can last months... were the men have to be real "tight" to survive... yeah, being able to share mags and swap parts or drink each others piss is required. But LE Operators get called up, then go home - all in the same day - WACO aside... they don't need to be GI... It is more important that they are very comfortable with the gear they wear, and the tools they use... they dont LIVE with their guns like say a Seal Team member does. A Swat guy will go home to his wife, not to his MP-5. As for Tactical Sense... I have seen Police Swat teams go into COMBAT with each officer packing different guns. You saying all those officers have no tactical sense? Remember to seperate the two types teams out there. Even if they carry similar gear and look the same, they have two vastly different missions. I know this first hand (no I wasn't a Seal)... and I still have pretty good tactical sense.
 
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Rob Pincus

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WEll, I can tell you from the LE side that everyone I work with prefers that we all have "tactical compatibility" including our multi-department SRT, which will be standardizing side arms next year, If the men's requests are honored.
(We are out in the county, I'm on the Sheriffs dept, but our "SRT" draws from county and three city PDs)
I agree that we have a different mission than a SEAL team, but the fact remains that magazine/weapon sharing can come up.

To be honest, anytime I think of FBI or Local LE in terms of "combat capability" it gives me tingles up and down my spine, even though I am part of that equation. It is not a good thing that we have to worry about things like that against our own citizens. still, there are some off-center people at there that are very well armed. WE had a copy cat of the LA bank roberry about 10 miles from our county line, luckily no one stopped these wackos on the way out, so no shootout ensued, but the fact remains that they had the Armor and the tactical rifles. We don;t know if they were automatic, but they were still rifles....
If I am counting on someone to cover my ass, I'd like to know that he is 100% capable with the gear we are using and ready to hand me a spare mag if I need it, or vice versa....
 
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Kodiac

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Sorry Rob, if I sounded a bit testy... A friend of mine was just killed the other day. A Richmond police officer. I been a bit cranky since then. It sounds like with such a large team as yours - you guys would benifit from uniform gear & guns to help keep you all on the same sheet of music. I was no in a large LE team like that - and all of us carried something different. But we all carried LOTS of loaded mags. I tended to pack my Mossberg 590 around, while every one else had 9MM and .45 SMGs (uzi). I am out of the MIB field now days. I spent most of my armed days in the military: Light Infantry, Rangers, 19th SF Group, then MP's... so I must admit, I know little of such a large LE SWAT organization. That must be interesting trying to get all the guys from all the departments together for training. Stay Safe.
 
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Rob Pincus

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I think that your friend deserves a moment of consideration from all of us.

That said, I hope they got the bad guy(s). and that he never breathes free air again.
 
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Kodiac

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They got him... Richmond PD Officers made sure the criminal paid for our friends life.

Did we get off topic here or what?
 
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Rob Pincus

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Kodiac,

I re-read this thread and wanted to make sure you (or others) didn't get the impression that I was on our SWAT team.
I work in the Firearms industry and am a volunteer officer. Luckily, my schedule often allows me to work 3 or 4 nights a week
(too bad they don't pay me!) and I spend a lot of time with the SWAT guys because of my interest/knowledge in firearms and tactics.... anyway..

what were we talking about?
 
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Kodiac

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We were talking about "why did the FBI choose to spende so much money on it's handguns for its SWAT team" I insist that the FBI would have been wiser, and no less gunned if the had chose a KIMBER instead of those horribly expensive custom Springfield units. With the money they saved they could have bought a second gun or tactical rifle for each man.
That was a huge waste of tax dollars.
 
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Rob Pincus

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I was very surprised to see them go with a single action weapon. Seems like the HRT is last group of guys that should have light trigger pulls!

The Kimber is probably the best buy in 1911's on the market today.
 
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Mike in VA

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Guys, I agree with your basic premise, i.e. why'd they spend so much on a single piece when they could have gotten a Kimber . . . but aren't we being a bit parochial, why limit it to 1911's? How about a SIG 220 (I admit it, I'm a SIG bigot) or even the new Beretta 8045 (just got one - like it a lot). They could have spent the balance on all kindsa stuff, including more/better training. I'm just a civilian,but tell me what the cocobola grips and Birdsong finish do to enhance combat effectiveness, anyway? Best regards, M2
 
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Rob Pincus

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I agree Mike, I think that Kodiac's premise was just that there are great guns for much less that for all practical purposes are exactly like the weapons they ended up with.
It is hard to argue that they wouldn't be well equipped with a Glock .45, which at LE discount would cost them less than $450. Glock sells guns to LE for less than they do to wholesalers, even individual officers for private purchase.
 
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Kodiac

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My point exactly. There was no reason for going with the guns they did other that that they could. There was little logic in it.
A 45 cal glock would have done just dandy. In fact, I bet there are people on that team that would much rather have the Glock.
Wait a sec, I am pushing glocks here... No, I ment HK... FBI should have Bought HKs... Yeah thats it...
 
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