Expert advice needed on grain loads/velocity/recoil

[evenflow80]

I'm just immensly confused here. No matter how much as I ask, no body can seemingly give me a clear, undisputed answer on how to be able to tell a certain bullets felt recoil from something that is on the box, like grains for example.

For example, yesterday I raided my local gun store and was wondering what kind of .44 Magnum ammo to stock up one. I asked the dealer for a mild 180 grain brand. He seemed stumped. He simply didn't know what to give me. He told me 240 grains are heavier bullets and thus less velocity, but then backtracked and sold me this very generic .44 180 gr ammo in a completely plain red box for 50 rounds for $25. The reasoning behind his logic if I don't like it, I just lost only $25 and no harm done.

I'm just confused. I shoot 125gr .357 ammo out of my SP101 3". The recoil is punishing and painful, to the point my hand gets cut and bleeds sometimes. Yet 158gr is milder....but 180gr .357 mag is stouter in recoil. Is there ANY pattern here?

Am I better off getting 240gr .44 mag ammo as opposed to 180gr because of the reduced velocity on the heavier bullet? This is for range shooting to long term comfort is important. I don't think I will ever shoot anything even remotely alive that weighs as much as a hog or a grizzly, I just want an ability to walk into a gun store, look at an ammo box, read the specs, and be able to tell which one will have reduced recoil.

No matter what forum I have, arguments would erupt where some would say a lighter grain bullet will ALWAYS have less felt recoil, while others will say heavier bullets travel slower and thus less felt recoil.

The confusing thing is that all those people are seemingly experts and experienced, but can't agree on something as seemingly basic as that.

Any help and general consensus?

 

[knight0334]

There are factors that many people forget about, and they are that velocity and rate of acceleration also play a part. When you push a light bullet fast enough it's energy will exceed that of heavier slugs, thus it's recoil will go up just the same. Sure, 180gr and a 240gr slug going the same velocity, the lighter one will have less recoil. Even a slight velocity advantage in favor of the lighter bullet will still have less recoil, but there comes a point where it will exceed the heavier slug.

Recoil starts as simple physics that Newton detailed. For every action there is an equal opposite reaction.

The blanket statement that lighter bullets recoil less is only true when the velocity and rate of acceleration isn't figured in.

 

[JohnKSa]

I'm just immensly confused here. No matter how much as I ask, no body can seemingly give me a clear, undisputed answer on how to be able to tell a certain bullets felt recoil from something that is on the box, like grains for example.

That's because it's not possible.

Felt recoil is subjective and depends on things like muzzle blast and the "sharpness" of the recoil impulse. It is not possible to determine those things from something that is on the box.

Recoil velocity (which is a quantifiable factor as opposed to felt recoil) is dependent on the velocity of the bullet, the mass of the bullet, the mass of the powder charge and the velocity of the combustion gases. I have seen some ammunition that lists velocity and bullet weight on the box, I can't recall seeing any that lists powder charge information.

IN GENERAL, you can roughly compare recoil velocity between two loadings in a given performance range, in a particular caliber and in a particular gun by looking at the product of the bullet weight and the muzzle velocity. If you compare the products from two different loadings the one with the larger product will generally kick more than the other if both are shot out of the same gun.

 

[44 Deerslayer]

I can't answer your question any better than the others. A hotter load recoils more, regardless of bullet weight.

If you are looking for a mild .44 mag factory load for range use, in my experience the mildest loads are aluminum cased Blazer 240 grain.

 

[flattop44sc]

44 ammo

manufacturers will never list powder/charge info because they can't. They buy powder in different lots and quantities.Their engineers run tests as to velocity, CUP's and other stuff we as shooters aren't interested in.I've heard that some loads vary as much as 5 grs with equal velocity. I began relaoding 20 yrs ago and figure my favorite load of 32 grs of H110 behind a 210gr hollow point costs me about $12 a box now that I've saved my brass. Buy any Dillon reloader, a good manuel and save cash.

 

[LHB1]

Evenflo,
The reason you can't get a simple, straight forward answer is because THERE IS NO SIMPLE, STRAIGHT FORWARD ANSWER TO YOUR QUESTION. The required information is not printed on the box. The grains weight printed on box is the weight of bullet alone. More info is required to determine total recoil and then you are adding in the sensory perception of recoil which can not be computed. Recoil is a combination of:
- Bullet weight (more weight implies more recoil),
- Velocity (more velocity implies more recoil),
- Weight of gun (more weight implies less recoil),
- Fit/feel of gun to you (impossible to predict/compute),
- Your sensory perception of recoil (varies from person to person).

All we can tell you is generic rules such as the above. The best way IMO to lessen recoil is to learn how to reload your ammunition and then you can load ammo with a light bullet, (safe) light powder charge, and fire it in a gun that fits your hand and is heavy enough to absorb the recoil better.

 

[NWPilgrim]

As they others have osted, the package rarely tells you anything that would help. Usually you have to go by experience; yours or others'.

In .44 Mag the CCI Blazer .44 mag is actually a mild magnum load. Most 240 gr and heavier are going to be full house loads and the heavier the bullet the more punishing (try a 300 gr load sometime). That's because there is a lot o volume in a .44 mag case and ammo makers figure if you need 240 gr bullets then you want full power. Since there is already the .44 Special cartridge, there is not much need for "light" loads in .44 magnum. One good reason to start handloading.

In .357, generally the sharpest recoiling are the 125 gr loads. The 158 gr loads are not as seemingly violent. And the 110 gr loads are typically made to be very light.

I have not found the same rule in .44 mag. Except for the CCI Blazer load, every bullet weight has been loaded to the max and it seems to me the heavier the bullet the harder the recoil.

either buy a sample of a lot of different brands or search the forum and ask around. The Blazer load is the only mild .44 mag I have come across.

 

[kraigwy]

I just want an ability to walk into a gun store, look at an ammo box, read the specs, and be able to tell which one will have reduced recoil.

This is more simple then you think, and the above post indicate.

You want lite recoil, but dont reload, SIMPLE, buy COWBOY ACTION AMMO.

Its quite mild compaired to normal 357 - 44 mag loads.

You do know of course that your 357 can shoot 38s without the bloody hands, and you 44 mag can shoot 44 specials, or better yet, 44 russian. All (38, 44 spl, and 44 Russian) can be had in the Cowboy action loads.

 

[evenflow80]

Strange, I did a quick google search on the CCI Blazer .44 Mag ammo 240gr and the ballistics are 1200fps for velocity. Seems higher than, say, the Falconwood .44 magnum at 1090 fps and 240gr.

What is considered a "mild" .44 mag load btw? My understanding is anywhere from 700fps to 1100fps? Am I correct in my assumption.

I really do appreciate all the help I'm getting on here.

 

[Lost Sheep]

Here's your single, simple, definitive answer:

Felt recoil depends on several factors. Aside from the subjective feel of your personal tolerance (which depends a lot on how your hand is constructed and wraps around your grip.

OK, the grip on your gun is unchanging, so, comparing apples to apples;

The other factors are: The weight of the gun which also is unchanging (except for the bullets the have left the gun. It will get lighter as you fire off rounds.) Each round weights between 110 grains to 180 grains and the gun gets that much lighter each round.

The Mass of the bullet.

The velocity of the bullet

The mass and velocity of the propellant (remember, you are accelerating the products of combustion, too)

The length of time the gun is pressing (or slamming) into your palm (a result of the acceleration curve, which depends a lot on how fast the powder burns)

The bad news:

You are not going to be able to tell by looking at the box.

The good news:

You can tell a lot by testing the rounds fired from your gun. Velocity times mass is proportional to momentum. Momentum is a good first approximation of recoil. Calculate the time that force was applied to your palm (the length of time the bullet took to leave the barrel). The longer the length of time, the less the average force was on your hand. But it was applied for a longer length of time.

The bad news: you will have to invest in a chronograph and several different loads.

The good news: you will own your own chronograph and once you have experienced all the different loads, you will be able to estimate the recoil to expect from loads you have not tested.

The bad news: It's a lot of effort.

The good news: you will now be one of the experts on this and other forums.

Lost Sheep

Remember, only believe half of what you see and one quarter of what you hear. That goes double for what you get from the internet. Even this post. Maybe especially this post.

Do your own independent, confirming research when ANYONE gives you new facts on the web.

Also remember, even the idiotic stuff might have a kernel of truth buried in there somewhere.

Lost Sheep

 

[BillCA]

If you have Microsoft Excel or a similar spreadsheet (such as the one from Open Office.org) you can calculate a baseline for each load.

The three most critical factors are bullet weight, muzzle velocity and the weight of the gun. Lighter bullets, as a general rule, generate less recoil. Lighter guns, however, increase felt recoil because they lack mass to help absorb energy produced by the launch.

The formula, as indicated above, includes a number of variables. The formula I use is;

(Bw*Mv + 4700*Pw)² / (64.348*Gw)

Where:
Bw = bullet weight in pounds (7000 grains per lb)
Mv = muzzle velocity in fps
Pw = Powder charge weight in lbs (varies, but use 8-10gr)
Gw = gun weight in pounds

It's easier to plug in the numbers for bullet & powder weights in grains and convert to pounds. Likewise, enter the gun weight in ounces and covert to lbs @ 16oz/lb.

Examples:
Federal (AE44B) 240gr .44 caliber @ 1270 fps w/10gr powder charge in a 45 oz 6-inch Model 29 gives 13.96 ft-lbs of recoil force.

A 180gr .44 caliber @ 1270 fps in the same gun = 8.57ft/lbs. Less recoil because the bullet is lighter.

However, Federal's (C44B) 180gr @ 1460 fps w/10gr (est) powder wgt in a 45 oz Model 29 = 10.82 ft/lbs of recoil.

Assuming you're shooting Federal Personal Defense (C357B) .357 125gr ammo @1440 fps out of your 26oz SP-101 2-inch snubby, that yields 10.06 ft-lbs of recoil.

I established my felt-recoil "pain threshold" using Federal American Eagle 158gr .357 JSP ammo @ 1240 fps out of a 23oz S&W Bodyguard 649 = 13.02 ft/lbs. This was over my limit for defensive loads since it hurt and caused the gun to rotate in my hand. I try to stay below 12 ft/lbs for "serious working loads" to allow follow-up shots.

IMNSHO, a load producing between 8-9.5 ft/lbs of recoil energy is excellent balance between downrange energy and controlablity for follow-up shots in a 35oz or heavier revolver. For your 26oz SP-101, that would be a 125gr bullet at 1250-1350 fps from a 4" barrel (444-518 ft/lbs of muzzle energy).

Notes:
1. The velocities are published velocities from Mfr websites and usually indicate velocity in a 4" barrel. Actual velocities in 2-inch and 3-inch guns will be lower. I still use the published figures for consistency in determining recoil forces.
2. Grip shape, length, fit to your hand and whether the steel backstrap is exposed all play a part in felt-recoil.

 

[NWPilgrim]

1200fps is a medium load for 240 gr. compared to the 1550 fps possible from a max load of W296 (according to Lee Reloading 2nd edition). Even a 300 grainer can be moved along at 1395fps. We are talking about the .44 magnum remember? It is not a wuss cartridge by any measure.

If you can find loads more mild than that, great! But you are bumping at .44 Special around 900+ fps.

Unlike the .357 magnum, the .44 magnum was designed from the beginning as a powerhouse load primarily for hunting. If you want mild, shoot .44 Specials in it. Or shoot .357 instead. Or start reloading.

I don't think you will find many mild loads for .378 Weatherby either. Sometimes when there is no good answer it means you are asking the wrong question.

 

[darkgael]

calc

A useful online tool is the recoil calculator that can be found at Handloads.com.
You still need to have all the data to input but at least the arithmetic is done for you.
See http://www.handloads.com/calc/recoil.asp

The program yields info about recoil pulse, velocity of the recoiling firerarm, and free recoil energy.

A quick for instance. A 240 grain bullet fired from a 7.5" barreled Ruger SRH (3.375lbs weight) at 1200 fps using a 21 grain charge of H110 will have a free recoil of 13 ft.lbs. At 1400 fps (24.2 grains of powder), the recoil is 17.6 ft.lbs.
If you reduce the weight of the gun - by less than a pound, maybe a Ruger BH and a shorter barrel - the recoil of the 1200 fps load goes up to 17.6 ft.lbs and the heavier load goes to nearly 24 ft.lbs (if you could get that velocity from a shorter barrel).
How all that feels to the shooter is another matter entirely.
Pete

 

[evenflow80]

Wow, I can't thank each and everyone of you enough for giving a newbie such great information. All I knew about guns before joining on here is that they shoot stuff where you point them.

Special thanks to both BillCA and Lost Sheep, very detailed info there guys.

 

[Old Grump]

Short answer is look at the muzzle energy. No matter what the gun the load with the higher muzzle energy will give you more recoil in 'that' gun. That is why the 125 gr 357 smacks your hand painfully.

Example:
158gr. 357 Mag @ 1235fps out of a 4" barrel = 535ft/lb of energy

Move down to a 110gr and...
110gr .357 Mag @ 1695fps out of a 4"barrel = 702ft/lb of energy.

 

[RKG]

Actually, free recoil is a function of the first power of muzzle velocity, while bullet energy is a function of muzzle velocity squared. As a result, if you could load a light bullet and a heavy bullet to exactly the same muzzle velocity, the lighter bullet should generate less free recoil.

 

[evenflow80]

Well, I sort of forgot to mention this:

But I recently bought 50 rounds of .44 magnum ammo (180gr) for about $25. That's pretty damn cheap for .44 mag rounds I'd imagine.

The thing is though, while the price is right, I'm not so sure about the brand.

No, seriously. I mean that literally, its basically a plain red box with a small white picture of the American flag on the side and "proudly made in America" script next to it.

That's it. Aside from teh white sticker on the end of it telling grain load, etc, that's all there is on the box. No manufacturer, no nothing. It does say its factory new ammo though, so its no reload.

$25 for a box of .44 ammo seems like a steal to me, but at what cost?? The bullets look shiny and nice and all, but am I asking for trouble here?

Anyone else run into this mysterious .44 Mag ammo in the red box with the white american flag on the side??

 

[JohnKSa]

What is the headstamp on the cartridges? (Markings on the end of the cartridge).

Check a few of them to make sure they're all stamped the same and then post the information. Someone will be able to determine the manufacturer based on that.

 

[evenflow80]

Hmm, I left them at my girlfriend's house, but I believe all they said at the end was ".44 Magnum".

I'll double check when I get my hands on them again....

 

[BillCA]

Starline brass will have a pair of stars connected by a line above the caliber stamping. Starline manufactures new brass for reloaders and commercial loaders.