Expensive Handguns

[stdalire]

Is a very costly price of a pistol guaranty that:
 It is durable
 Reliable
 Or to sum up has a better quality materials or components used.

What are really the factors and reasons, would it not be for the following criteria such as:
 The shape is good looking or artistic in design (they called it ergonomics)
 But sometimes a pistol of being so ergonomics does not look like a gun any more but more than a toys or laser pistols used by fiction characters in space.
 The manufacturer has been manufacturing a gun before WWI & WWII
 Manufacturers products were purchased by popular countries, organizations, police/military agencies, or any other gov’t units.
 Manufacturer has good advertisement as they have the money to spend and make good sales even their products are inferior than the unpopular one who has no financial capability to spend for sponsoring of any kind of advertisement.



[This message has been edited by stdalire (edited November 03, 1999).]

 

[George Hill]

The amount of money you pay for a handgun has little to do with it. It isnt the money. Its the gun its self. I am a big HK fan. But thats because I like each gun HK makes... Not just because HK has a cool logo, history, marketing, or any of that... HK has made them selves into what they are the hard way. Glock says "perfection" and there testing and there field reports prove - about as near as a pistol can get to perfection...
SIG makes a great gun - everything on it is just plain done very very well. Generally you do get what you pay for. But even so - the money isnt a garanty. Name isnt either. When I went to buy my new carry gun - I didnt go with a name - I went and looked at many fire arms - examined them CLOSE UP - disassembled them and put them back together. Quite a few failed my requirements, some got the INSPECTED BY KODIAC stamp... but that wasnt all. I took my top selections and fired them. I dry fired them - then took them to the range in site and pumped a mag full of rounds through them... Then I inspected them again. I inspected the ejected brass. I inspected the target. I inspected my hands...
After giving each gun a complete anal probe - (I am always tighter than hell when it comes to spending gun money.) I selected the pistol that suited and felt the best. This time - the HK was passed up. The Sig P239 was passed. These guns are spendy - but also have a LOYAL FOLLOWING - justified too... I picked the Kimber, a 1911 variant. The kimber was spendy too - but if a LLAMA had done what the Kimber had done - and had a reliable reputation, Customer Service, the whole ball of wax - then I would have bought the Llama for less than 1/3 the price and gladly pocketed the change.

You can put a Ford Tempo up against a BMW 325 for comparison any day you like. But they really are on two different levels - its not the money - its the quality, performance, styling, feel, reliability, materials... All that rolls into the factor. Thats why a BMW will cost as much as twice that of the ford.

I dont want to risk my life - or my familys on the Tempo - I want to be sure - I need faith - that it can get us from point A to point B. If you have faith in the Tempo... Good for you. If you need a little more than faith...

Personal taste is also a big factor. A Ruger or Bersa doesnt taste as good to me.

Hmmm... taste... that reminds me... Whats in the snack machines... I gotts to go...

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"A fear of weapons is a sign of retarded sexual and emotional maturity." - Sigmund Freud
RAGE AGAINST THE MACHINE

 

[Oris]

Price for handguns is set by the market,
as for any other product. If people are
willing to buy for the higher price, you
get higher price. Then you are ask yourself
a question what are the REASONs for people
to buy this or that particular handgun. If a lot of folks want HK as a favorite toy, HK price will be high, despite the fact that it's low cost of production does not justify such high resale price. Many other factors
are involved too...Anyway, price is not a real indicator, I believe...

 

[George Hill]

Hmmm... I wonder WHY so many people are willing to pay more for it...
Is it because it is an HK?
Because it really is that good to justify it?
Or...
Is it we are just too stupid to realize the value of a Ruger P95?




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"A fear of weapons is a sign of retarded sexual and emotional maturity." - Sigmund Freud
RAGE AGAINST THE MACHINE

 

[BigG]

I think because it's made in GERMANY and a lot of stuff that comes from there is top quality (and top priced!) in this case I believe HK is way over-priced for a stamped steel anchor with a BB gun trigger. Opps, sorry George. I was talking about the HK 91. Gimme a COLT 45.

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Be mentally deliberate, but muscularly fast. Aim for just above the belt buckle.
Wyatt Earp

 

[stdalire]

George: You almost filled up my hearts and mind of all my questions. Thanks for the very almost near to accurate and reasonable explanations you presented hereon.

Perhaps many more good explanations to be given by the experts in this forum.

In some countries, sometimes if the name of the fiream is well placed in the market and has good historical records it will command a good price. That is why sometimes, with the many appreciation of users of one trademark will really influence the consumer too.

One time I saw a price of a pistol for $350 and after a year it cost $700 but the other pistol prices on the shelves remain the same even it has a higher tag than the other with a cheap price. I asked the sales lady, and she said, that pistol is fast moving in our sales because it makes good performance in some competition and other users reports.

Thanks



[This message has been edited by stdalire (edited November 03, 1999).]

 

[fal308]

Yes marketing does play a big part in most any area of sales. Sometimes more than it should. That is why companies are always looking for public endorsements by those that the company thinks the public will accept as authorities on that particular consumer good. For instance in the automotive fields, look at what racing has done for many manufacturers' sales volume. Remember the auto manufacturers' axiom "Win on Sunday, sell on Monday". That holds true in any marketing field. The public sees their police and/or military using a particular weapon system, therefore they think that the LEO or mil. were given the best. They don't realize that most such sales are compormises in one way or another, i.e. training issues, spares, trade-in values, physical sizes of intended endusers, etc. Not that the item in question is necessarily bad but it may not be the best choice. Also the marketing aspect can only generalize, they are trying to sell to the widest market available whereas you (as an individual) are only trying to buy one (or a relatively small amount). Then much of the support isn't much good to you as an individual.
In general, as has been often posted, buy what feels and operates well for you; not because **** bought it. Be aware of support (customer service, warranty etc) because it can make a difference in your purchase.

 

[fal308]

Was thinking of a perfect example while posting above and then forgot to add it.

Colt is a good example of this. I think most here at TFL would refrain from purchasing a new Colt product, not necessarily because of political reasons, but also because of the quality control problems they can't seem to get rid of. I also know of many that won't buy a new Smith & Wesson revolver for the same reason. Many of these well-established companies (and not just in the firearms field) are being run into the ground and beginning to lose their customer base. Part of the reason is simple evolution and part is to please those who are fiscally responsible (stockholders). Nowadays in business, the profit margin is paramount. No matter that quality is lacking or the company is not making what the consumer wants, call in marketing and tell the consumer what they want. Tell them often enough and the company will probably do well. These companies don't worry about their tomorrows, they only want instant gratification. They want their balance books to show a healthy profit margin today. Look closer at many of these companies and you will see they trim anything that doesn't make a profit today. R&D depts are a perfect example. A large percentage of companies dump or effectively emasculate their R&D first and foremost as that is not a profit center (generally speaking). You won't see many companies drastically cutting their marketing departments though. Yet R&D is the part of the company that determines what can be done tomorrow. If any company can't keep bringing out new product, it will stagnate and die. To use another automotive analogy, how many people would go into their local Ford dealer and buy a new Model T as their daily transportation in today's market? Where would Ford be if there was no R&D. They would be extinct.

 

[10mmrules]

I judge the value of the individual gun on it's merits and worth. Right now I own Kimbers, Because I can get just as much reliability, and acuracy form a kimber for $599 as I can a Wilson for $1500. I have 4 Glocks, and of course they cost less. but they are not as accurate. they arent worth as much. For a carry gun, I use a kimber compact. I used to use a glock subcompact, until I started competetive shooting. I want to have a gun I can definately hit what I shoot at. and I trust the Kimber because of what it has shown me vs the glock. sure the glock will reliably spit bullets out but they don't always hit the same spot. You pay for what you get

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10MM Magnum.... tried the rest, now I got the best

 

[Ben]

If you want to compare guns with transportation, look at Harley-Davidson. Have you seen the prices that the dealers are SUPPOSED to sell for... have you seen the prices that dealers actually DO SELL FOR?

In H-D's brochure, it says you can buy a 99 Sportster for around $7,000.00. I can almost guarantee that you won't find ANY new H-D Sportsters (883 even) from a dealer for under $10,000.00. Dealers KNOW that people will pay up the nose for a H-D... or gun for that matter. Is the Harley a better bike (3-$4,000 better) than a Honda, Yamaha, Buell (H-D also), or Kawasaki?... probably not... but it's what sells.

I'll buy an HK and an H-D when they start getting a little more realistic.
Ben

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AOL IM: BenK911
ICQ # 53788523
"Gun Control Is Being Able To Hit Your Target"

 

[Ankeny]

Hey 10mmmrules:

I have a Glock G35 and I have put over $300.00 in aftermarket parts in it for competition. Still, it only shoots about 3.5 inch groups at 25 yards so a fitted Bar-Sto barrel is next for another $200.00. I guess I got even less than what I paid for.

Enter my Glock G27 sub-compact. What a strange little pistol. I consistently shoot sub-three inch groups with it offhand at 25 yards. I have fired many five shot groups of 2 inches or less with it. Put some night sights on it and had ARS do a grip reduction so it points straight. This pistol is my primary CCW gun and I love it. Do ya suppose I actually got more than I paid for?

 

[ghostsix]

If you really want to spend some money;tell Bill Wilson that you want a Tactical Elite that will shoot 1" 5 shot groups at 50 yds.with 100% reliability,and a 2 1/2# trigger pull.He can do it.Now tell him that you want a .22 conversion kit with the same matched feel ,hand fitted to that frame,and serial marked,that will do the same.He can do that,as well.They will be taking that sucker apart to tweak it a bunch of times.The poor,or the impatient, need not apply.

[This message has been edited by ghostsix (edited November 03, 1999).]

 

[Ala Dan]

Greetings, My favorite's among many would
be the complete line of Sig-Sauer's; as
this company does not produce any "JUNK
GUNS". Cost always plays an important
factor in consumer purchases; but why
do so many government agencies in this
country, and government's of other
countries prefer Sig's? Countries like
Germany, Turkey, and Japan just to name
a few examples? Wonder what the Austrian
Army really does carry? Are there Glock's
in every holster? Maybe someone can do a
study, with two sub divisions: (1) Military
Handguns, and (2) Law Enforcement Handguns
currently in use by each country? Anyone
wishing to tackle this endeavor; please
give us a report on this forum?

Message edited by Dan H. Ford 11-03-99

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Ala Dan

 

[Peter M. Eick]

I read your question and the comments, but I did not see many responses from poeple who seem own expensive guns. I look at the HK etc guns as sort of like a good chevy, good enough for running to and from work but not really that expensive when you compare it to a rolls.

I have some Les Baer 45's and would say that they are worth every single penny. Whenever I hold my Les's next to a kimber or a colt or any other mainstream manufactorer, it is easy to see where every penny went. Tighter fit, perfect slide function, flawless trigger etc. This is where the current made top dollar guns show there differences.

On the other hand, I have an unfired 44 automag. It is a very expensive trinket that I never shoot, look at a few times a year and let it sit in the safe. As one of the earlier replies said, it is what the market will bear and hence the expensive price. Now compare it to the Les's and you would wonder why it ever sold in the first place.

My conclusion is as follows, when I can get what I want in a more expensive gun, like a 45 where you can go from colt to a Les, get the Les every time. On the otherhand, when you have little choices like in the 10mm's, buy the best you can afford or think custom.

If you are not sure of my advice, get your hands on a really good custom model or a Les and compare it to your best colt or kimber. I think you will see the difference.

Hope this helps.

pete

 

[George Hill]

Les Bear does a neat little trick to the 1911 - his BOBTAIL mod is really cool.
I am considering getting it done to my Kimber. Any one know the price?

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"A fear of weapons is a sign of retarded sexual and emotional maturity." - Sigmund Freud
RAGE AGAINST THE MACHINE

 

[10mmrules]

Ankeny,
Sorry if you took my post to say I didnt think Glock was good. If that were my intention, I would have sold mine. I have a G29, 10mm. amd I love it. But I shoot Bowling pins with my compact Kimber @ 50 yards with out a lot of concentration. The glock just want do it on My best day with out taking a lot of time, and concentration. then I usually mess up the shot with My trigger pulloff. The glock is a good gun, up to about 25 yards. I have a g23 with a federal arms match barrel, and 200.00 worth of accurizing. I still cant hit consistently with it. But it is me not the gun. I guess that is why they have so many diffrent brands.

P.S. try the optima 2000 it is a slide mounted red dot sight. I have one on my g29, and on one of my Kimbers. on the kimber it will put all the shots in one big hole at 25 yards.

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10MM Magnum.... tried the rest, now I got the best

[This message has been edited by 10mmrules (edited November 04, 1999).]

 

[Ricky T]

George Hill,
Ed Brown does the Bobtail conversion on 1911s. He charges $150. Check it out on his website, www.edbrown.com.
Regards,

 

[Goatherd]

George Hill Wrote:

>You can put a Ford Tempo up against a BMW >325 for comparison any day you like. But >they really are on two different levels - >its not the money - its the quality, >performance, styling, feel, reliability, >materials... All that rolls into the >factor. Thats why a BMW will cost as much >as twice that of the ford.

When you're laying in the middle of the road and you look up and see either the Ford or the BMW barreling down on you, I don't think you will care much which car it is. I can't really imagine the last thing going through my mind being, "Nice hood ornament".

I would think the same thing would apply when the bad guy realizes he picked the wrong victim and is looking down the barrel of either a Ruger or a HK. In all likelihood he will not be thinking, "Wow, nice HK." but rather "Oh, Sh**! I picked the wrong guy."

Now for enjoyment in driveing, go with the BMW. I've had four of them and they are a dream to drive. But my Ford PU is just as reliable and a heck of a lot more practical for getting a load of hay for the goats.

Follow theme for HK and Ruger for shooting for enjoyment.

So the question is, do you want to get there with some change in your pocket, or do you want to get there and have a great time on the way?

- GH

 

[Neil_Stringer]

I agree with everthing said so far but my best gun is my 92fs beretta

i've had glocks and handled hk's
but the only one i can be smooth and accurate is my 92

 

[Wally]

I have yet to meet a person who consistantly preferred mediocrity to top quality.Other things being equal,shouldn't you go for the best you can reasonably afford? If the best isn't in your budget today there is always tomorrow.Think positive.