I went to the range to sight in a new scope and since I had some old (15 years) factory loads I figured I would use them for sighters. They were federal American eagle 150 gr. When I fired the first shot, I noticed the bolt lift was difficult, I thought it must be a fluke. So I fired another one and it was the same, I looked at the case rim and it had an extractor mark. I always leave a little lube in the barrel after cleaning (just run a wet patch through). Could that have contributed to the excessive pressure?
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Excessive pressure from factory cartridges...
- Thread starter 1stmar
- Start date
Just the opposite. My first shots/clean/light-lubed barrel are usually 20-40fps slower becauseI always leave a little lube in the barrel after cleaning (just run a wet patch through).
Could that have contributed to the excessive pressure?
fouling has not yet impeded bullet acceleration. -- i.e., I'm running lower pressure.
If you have an extractor burnish, you are running 70,000+psi. What was the temperature?
(and what was the cartridge?)
math teacher
New member
If you had lube in the chamber it could prevent the case from gripping the chamber wall so that it came back hard against the bolt causing the pressure signs you got. Not sure that explains the hard extraction though.
I don't typically lube the chamber but there could have been some residue from the patch running through it. I'm going back tomorrow , can clean the chamber ahead of time. What's the conventional wisdom, these things ok for firing? I have never heard of powder changing its properties over time, especially in a sealed container (cartridge) where humidity would not effect it.
mrawesome22
New member
Federal is notorious for overly soft brass that will do these kinds of things even with starting loads.
After trying to load Federal brass for 3 different cartridges, and having problems with all 3, I simply won't waste my time with their products.
Sent from HenseMod6.
After trying to load Federal brass for 3 different cartridges, and having problems with all 3, I simply won't waste my time with their products.
Sent from HenseMod6.
Brian Pfleuger
Moderator Emeritus
Powder certainly degrades over time but it's lifespan should be measured in decades, at least, with proper storage.
If there was enough lube in that chamber to provide that kind of bolt thrust, I'd say those cases would have to be well oiled when they came out. If they weren't, it's not a lube problem.
"Lube" is a relative term, anyway. Most lube are not meant to function at 60,000psi. Just because you got a little oil in there doesn't mean it works as a lube above 7-10,000 psi.
I always run a lubed patch through my chamber/barrel when I clean my guns. I've never had a problem anything like you describe.
If there was enough lube in that chamber to provide that kind of bolt thrust, I'd say those cases would have to be well oiled when they came out. If they weren't, it's not a lube problem.
"Lube" is a relative term, anyway. Most lube are not meant to function at 60,000psi. Just because you got a little oil in there doesn't mean it works as a lube above 7-10,000 psi.
I always run a lubed patch through my chamber/barrel when I clean my guns. I've never had a problem anything like you describe.
I vote for a factory max load right at the border, temperature effects that pushed it even closer to that rated edge,
and soft Federal brass that began to flow at slightly lower pressures than normal.
(postscript) bolt thrust even with well-oiled cases would be only a fraction of the pressure required to cause actual brass flow.
See http://www.varmintal.com/a243zold.htm
243 Win bolt thrust goes from 4,400lbs in a very rough chamber, to only 4,800 lbs in a fully-polished/actually-greased chamber
and soft Federal brass that began to flow at slightly lower pressures than normal.
(postscript) bolt thrust even with well-oiled cases would be only a fraction of the pressure required to cause actual brass flow.
See http://www.varmintal.com/a243zold.htm
243 Win bolt thrust goes from 4,400lbs in a very rough chamber, to only 4,800 lbs in a fully-polished/actually-greased chamber
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They were in my trunk for transit from my house to the range. It's seven miles, 10 min. Then unload the gear, maybe another 5-10. It's possible, but it was early in the morning, 10am, when I started to load up and head to the range. I'm not ruling it out, seems like a small window. I'm going try 1 more round and see.
15 years may have allowed for some corrosion bonding between the bullets and brass. It's not uncommon for aged bullets to be harder to pull. That raises starting pressure. If you are a reloader, you can try seating the bullets in a tiny bit, like a hundredth of an inch or two to break any such bond, then see what happens.
wncchester
New member
Wet oil in a bore will increase the resistance to passage of a rapidly moving bullet. What most 'fouling' shots do is remove that oil. It's much better for both accuracy and reduced carbon fouling if we remove any oily residue before firing.
I use a Hoppe's wet patch to dissolve and remove any dried oil and follow that with enough dry patches to totally wipe the bore out before shooting. My first shots typically land in the group, which is VERY nice for hunting!
I use a Hoppe's wet patch to dissolve and remove any dried oil and follow that with enough dry patches to totally wipe the bore out before shooting. My first shots typically land in the group, which is VERY nice for hunting!
An alternative suggested in a Precision Shooting article some years ago is to use a synthetic oil. Slip 2000's gun oil was the one covered in that instance. Its vapor and burning temperatures are much higher than petroleum oils, so you get away from the carbon contribution issue. It needs to be very thin, of course, if you're not going to remove it for firing. Hydraulic pressure comes from a significant thickness being plowed into by the bullet. You can run and oily patch followed by a dry patch to thin it out well.
15 years may have allowed for some corrosion bonding between the bullets and brass. It's not uncommon for aged bullets to be harder to pull. That raises starting pressure. If you are a reloader, you can try seating the bullets in a tiny bit, like a hundredth of an inch or two to break any such bond, then see what happens
This is what really caused the M1903 blowups with the 1921 Tin Can ammunition. This stuff had tin coatings on the bullets and in time that migrated into the case necks causing a bore obstruction.
The Army ran a cover up blaming the civilians and their practice of greasing their bullets, something of which had been going on for decades without problems, but the real problem was the bore obstruction created by the "cold welding" of tin to the brass case neck.
There are a few M1903's blowup's due to the Tin Can ammunition in Hatcher's Notebook, you have to really look but they are there.
Any delay of bullet release will really spike pressures.
m&p45acp10+1
New member
15 years does not sound that old for ammo to me. Was the ammo stored in a climate controlled place? If it were for the 15 years left in somewhere exposed to a lot of heat. Then it could possibly have compromised it. Though I would say that is doubtful.
I have quite a bit of R-P CoreLokt that are older than I am. Grampa from what I remember bought it in the mid 1960's from a hardware store that was closing down. It was stored in semi climate controlled conditions. I still hunt with it due to the fact that it still works the same as it always has. I have fired in in quite a few guns with no problems. In fact I have all of the fired brass for if I decide to reload for it I have the brass. Though I have five thousand more rounds to go before I will consider it.
I have quite a bit of R-P CoreLokt that are older than I am. Grampa from what I remember bought it in the mid 1960's from a hardware store that was closing down. It was stored in semi climate controlled conditions. I still hunt with it due to the fact that it still works the same as it always has. I have fired in in quite a few guns with no problems. In fact I have all of the fired brass for if I decide to reload for it I have the brass. Though I have five thousand more rounds to go before I will consider it.
If that's the case and every round showed the problem, then cold bonded bullets don't seem likely to be the issue. You are then really down to one of two things: either soft Federal soft brass syndrome, or actual overpressure.
Dan Newberry flat out considers Federal brass unsuitable for reloading because of the softness. I've used it successfully in .308, but with very moderate loads. It doesn't really like running much over 45,000 psi if you expect to get any life out of it, though. In some chamberings Federal factory ammo is known to eject with loose primer pockets just from that first firing, at which point it's done. One classic sign you are reloading too warm for the brass is the primer pockets getting loose in fewer than five firings, so Federal runs warmer than is good for their own brass in some instances, and you may have found one.
Sticky bolt lift can be due to stretching steel at excessive pressure, so that it lets the brass expand beyond its elastic limit, then snaps down on it making a tight clamp fit. But soft brass mimics that by being less elastic than normal brass, flowing out and not springing back as much, also resulting in a fairly tight fit even at pressures that don't over stress the gun steel. As an example, one board member had some old military brass that someone had apparently annealed in an oven instead of just at the necks (a big no-no, as the heads have to remain work hardened the way they come off the forming dies at the factory). Loads that should have been in the 40 grain range he could only load to about 32 grains before he got sticky bolt lift. The stuff was just flat out flowing tight into the chamber and not springing back normally. I sent him a few new military cases and they worked fine, and the commercial loads he'd tried were fine, so we know it wasn't the gun or his other load components. The old stuff had to be scrapped or used for catsneeze loads.
Bottom line here is to figure out what you should do with this ammo. The only way to know for sure that its the brass and only the brass that is unhappy with the pressures is to measure the pressure. I'm assuming you don't have a Pressure Trace instrument you could use to compare it to other loads in the gun. In that case I would call Federal, give them the lot number and explain the symptom and they will probably want to see and check the ammo. If there's ever been a recall on that lot, they will know, and it's worth finding that out for sure one way or the other. They may also offer to replace it with something newer, though I can't say for sure. In any event, it's good practice to make them aware of the issue.
Dan Newberry flat out considers Federal brass unsuitable for reloading because of the softness. I've used it successfully in .308, but with very moderate loads. It doesn't really like running much over 45,000 psi if you expect to get any life out of it, though. In some chamberings Federal factory ammo is known to eject with loose primer pockets just from that first firing, at which point it's done. One classic sign you are reloading too warm for the brass is the primer pockets getting loose in fewer than five firings, so Federal runs warmer than is good for their own brass in some instances, and you may have found one.
Sticky bolt lift can be due to stretching steel at excessive pressure, so that it lets the brass expand beyond its elastic limit, then snaps down on it making a tight clamp fit. But soft brass mimics that by being less elastic than normal brass, flowing out and not springing back as much, also resulting in a fairly tight fit even at pressures that don't over stress the gun steel. As an example, one board member had some old military brass that someone had apparently annealed in an oven instead of just at the necks (a big no-no, as the heads have to remain work hardened the way they come off the forming dies at the factory). Loads that should have been in the 40 grain range he could only load to about 32 grains before he got sticky bolt lift. The stuff was just flat out flowing tight into the chamber and not springing back normally. I sent him a few new military cases and they worked fine, and the commercial loads he'd tried were fine, so we know it wasn't the gun or his other load components. The old stuff had to be scrapped or used for catsneeze loads.
Bottom line here is to figure out what you should do with this ammo. The only way to know for sure that its the brass and only the brass that is unhappy with the pressures is to measure the pressure. I'm assuming you don't have a Pressure Trace instrument you could use to compare it to other loads in the gun. In that case I would call Federal, give them the lot number and explain the symptom and they will probably want to see and check the ammo. If there's ever been a recall on that lot, they will know, and it's worth finding that out for sure one way or the other. They may also offer to replace it with something newer, though I can't say for sure. In any event, it's good practice to make them aware of the issue.