Everything crappy about the...P7 series.

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Greg Bell

New member
I want to start a series of posts stressing the actual shortcomings of some of the pistols that are popular around here. Lets keep this real. Try not to post BS if it can be helped.

The P7 series is up first because it is my longtime favorite.

1. HOT! This gun gets outrageously hot after 60-100 rounds of steady fire.

2. The worst finish this side of a sig (about as durable as tissue).

3. Stunningly pricey. Around here you'll part with around $1000 for a new one.

4. Dirty. This gun gets dirty fast, which is bad because...

5. The P7 are sensitive to crud. The P7 is ultra-reliable but you have to keep it pretty clean.

6. The gun emits an audible click when decocked. However, this can be overcome with technique.

7. Low capacity unless you like the M13--which has a grip like a baseball bat.

Any thoughts...
 
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Greg Bell

New member
And the grip screws come out after a few shots unless you lock-tite em'. And dear God don't damage them because they cost $4 a piece to replace (last time I checked).
 
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Dave Finfrock

New member
Heh, mostly sour grapes. The pistol is one of the best there is, period. To wit:

1. Pure BS. The gun just doesn't get that hot. Yes, I've run a few hundred through mine on a summer afternoon. It does get warm. Burn yourself? Please, spare me.

2. It's blued. So are most revolvers. So what? Get a nickled one if it bothers you.

3. Yeah, it costs more than a box of Wheaties. Again, so what? My Baer cost more than my P7s. So what?

4. Yes, it's an amazingly grubby pistol, but...

5. It doesn't matter. The P7 couldn't care less how often its cleaned. Anyone who says otherwise is ignorant of the facts.

6. My knees pop when I crouch. So what?

7. You knew this going in, and 9 rounds isn't hardly low capacity. The new Glock .45 holds six. Another non-issue.

Further thoughts...if this is the best you can do for shortcomings, it only validates the excellance of the P7.

And the grip screws don't come out. The have lock washers and I've never had one ever come loose. More BS...
 
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viper

New member
All right, as a longtime P7M13 owner, a few statements are in order:

1)Greg, the P7 might crud up, but that gun can handle crud better(i.e. more crud inside the action) than any other gun in the world(with the possible exeption of the Glock), as long as you are using jacketed ammunition that does not foul the gun with lead. With factory jacketed ammo, the gun is death and taxes reliable. You can shoot literally thousands of rounds through it without cleaning it.

2)And Dave, that freakin' gun gets as hot as Clinton in a room fulla' Swedish interns. It becomes literally too hot to hold, and WILL burn you after a certain number of rounds, that number depending on the speed at which you are firing.

3)The grip on the M13 isn't that bad, just blocky. Anyone with normal to large sized hands can handle it, no problem.

4)The reason I carry my Glock 19 over my P7 is that I can beat the hell out of the Glock, the Glock's grip doesn't get hot(in the Miami heat), and the Glock is lighter--while at the same time carrying more rounds.
 
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Mike Irwin

Staff
Dave,

Point 5, you say "ignorant of the facts."

Just what "facts?"

The fact that my friend and I shot my P7M13 from crystal clean to malfunctioningly dirty in one afternoon? Took us about 700-750 rounds, but then the little things started to happen... short cycling of the slide being the big culprit. Why? A gas system choked with carbon.

Less than 5 minutes with a brush and the reamer, and we were back in business. I guess my P7 is ignorant of the fact that it's supposed to cycle all of the carbon out of the gas cylinder, and that's why it brought its own cylinder reamer with it...

And, during much of that time, the gun was amazingly hot around the trigger guard due to the heat bleed from the gas system. Quite hot enough to burn. I guess my P7 was ignorant of the fact that it wasn't supposed to get hot?

Point 3. Your Baer isn't a general production pistol. It's semi/full custom. Big difference between the two.

Luckily, I got my P7M13 as a gift.

I'm glad you never had a grip screw come lose. I certainly have, and the US Park Police have had this problem continually, which is one of the reasons why the grip screw lock washers were installed in the first place, from what I understand.

Could it be our guns are of different genres? Or is that BS?

Sigh...

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Smith & Wesson is dead to me.

If you want a Smith & Wesson, buy USED!
 
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Greg Bell

New member
Frinfrock,

1. Sure your gun doesn' t get hot. I've owned three different P7s, my favorite for almost 10 years. All of them exhibited roughly the same behavior--60-100 hot...100-200..holy hot...200+ unbearable. In fact, the senior armorer at HK USA (Kunz, III if I recall) said the gun's tendency to run a temperature actually made the gun a poor choice for training new users with. Strangely, I learned to shoot with mine. But, when I started shooting I rarely shot more than 2 boxes of ammo per outing.

2. The P7's blueing is very thin. Especially noticeable because of the sharp edges and the scratch marks that appear on the squeeze cocker (right side).The gun adores corrossion. The nickel hasn't been availible since the mid-nineties. My M8 was originally nickel. The nickel peeled and I had it hard-chromed (see my posts from around this time last year). Unfortunately, my P7 looks so nice I hate to carry it!

3. OK, you, like me, are willing to part with big money for a nice gun. The gun is still expensive. Way too expensive for a large part of the shooting public. Hey, you get what you pay for.

4-5. While the P7 itself may not care if it is cleaned, the owner might if he doesn't want the slide to freeze in a locked back position. I was able to get my M13 and M8 to do this by failing to keep the gas cylinder clean. Granted, many rounds had to be expended before this would happen. Anyone who believes that the P7 isn't sensitive to dirt (and lead) need only read his or her manual. However, if you keep the gun clean it will not fail you. In fact, clean, the gun will work even with a broken extractor.

6. Many people worry that the click from the cocking lever makes the gun dangerous for applications requiring stealth. I tend to agree with you that this is nit-picky. In fact, if you push in the cocking-lever catch at the bottom of the trigger gaurd(while releasing the cocking lever) you can silence the noise.

7. Sure capacity is a non-issue. Umm hmm.

Even if you manage to keep the lock washers, the screws will still work themselves out. This can be fixed with lock-tite.
I agree that the P7 is awesome. In fact, I think the M8 is the "final answer" to the concealed carry issue (until HK grows a brain and develops a 40 or 357 Sig version that doesn't resemble a tiger tank (like the ill-fated M10). I just thought it would be a nice idea to air out all of the gun's flaws.

GHB



[This message has been edited by Greg Bell (edited October 17, 2000).]
 
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Incursion

New member
Greg, what's wrong with the "wimpy" 9mm? :)


[This message has been edited by Incursion (edited October 17, 2000).]
 
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Greg Bell

New member
Nothing. I've just been brow-beaten into joining the "bigger, faster" crowd. Plus, I like the idea behind the 357 Sig. But there isn't anything wrong with 9mm that cor-bon can't fix.
 
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VictorLouis

New member
It can be difficult to manipulate that itsy-bitsy slide lock in order to manually lock open the slide. I mean, with your thumb or index finger, and not the use of an empty mag. I just had my friend's M8 pop its mag free while holstering it in a generic open-top leather holster. THAT could be a little disconcerting if you didn't notice it(I heard the 'click' on its release). :( I do miss my PSP, a little. :)
 
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Gary H

New member
I prefer the larger M10 and M13. They fit my hand and just feel right, as does the Glock 21. Love my M8, but not as comfortable for me. Great guns. Fewer defects than their owner. Let's post a question relative to defects found in gun owners. Defect #1: Spending money on more than one each: rifle, pistol and shotgun. Defect #2: Talking more than politically active. #3: Same as #4 & #5???
 
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parabellum

New member
You bet the pistol gets hot. I have 6 mags for mine. If I shoot the 8 rounds out of all the mags, when I get to the last round in mag #6, the gun has become uncomfortable to hold.

But, in a defensive situation, is this a consideration? No, it isn't.

Yes, the pistol gets dirty quickly. Aren't you gonna clean it after you practice? Yeah? So, you'll have a nice, pristine piece when you whip it out for real, right? Right. Again, not a consideration in a defensive situation.

The "audible click", I won't even bother with.

Price? Then why did you buy it? You want "stunningly pricey"? Try a Sig 210. I kinda like the fact it's priced on the high side. Makes me feel special. :)

Call me crazy, but I like guns that wear off some blue. They look broken in, and I don't have to worry about babyin' 'em. I've got several pistols that are pretty and gonna stay that way. Let the blue wear. When it gets where you can't stand it, get it chromed.

I definitely never warmed up to the M13, which is a shame. But it does have one of the worst in-hand feels of any pistol I've ever picked up.

More pros than cons for me on this one. I wouldn't get rid of mine.
 
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Greg Bell

New member
Everything crappy about the...P7 series FAQ: 1.0

1. The gun gets uncomfortably hot after 60-100 shots. More of a training problem than a "real world" consideration.

2. Finish lacks durability. Blued finish wears quickly and is very little protection against corrosion.

3. Very expensive. At over $1000, this gun is out of the range of many buyers.

4. The gun's design is such that it gets dirty quickly when shot. Not a "real world" defense consideration. Just keep it clean.

5. The gun malfunctions when not maintained properly. While this is true of all guns, the P7 seems to be more sensitive than most modern autos. The solution is to keep the gas cylinder clean.

6. The P7's cocking lever emits a click when released. This is more of an issue with Sgt. Rock/G.I. Joe types than real people. Easily overcome with technique anyway.

7. Low capacity. Except in now unavailible M13(LEO only) and M10(discontinued for ugliness), capacity is limited to 9 rounds (with one in chamber).

8. Grip screws come loose too easily. Use lock-tite.

9. Can't use lead bullets (see cleanliness issues above).

10. Slide lock button too small for some. Not an issue if slide is drawn back with empty magazine in gun.

11. Magazine release on M8/M13 too sensitive to careless holstering (accidental magazine ejection). PSP model doesn't suffer from this (Euro-mag catch).

anything else?
 
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Tamara

Moderator Emeritus
Seeing as how the gas pressure in the cylinder retards the movement of the slide, I'm just dying to have someone explain to me how a fouled gas port caused the slide to "short cycle" rather than cycle too fast for the mag spring...

Solution to sensitive mag release: Mad Dog Kydex Taylor Thunderbolt. I haven't a clue how this holster could release the mag no matter how zealously the gun was inserted.

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"..but never ever Fear. Fear is for the enemy. Fear and Bullets."
10mm: It's not the size of the Dawg in the fight, it's the size of the fight in the dog!

[This message has been edited by Tamara (edited October 17, 2000).]
 
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Mike Irwin

Staff
<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by ether:
I only wish I had the money to find out first-hand if you guys are full o' BS :)[/quote]

Hey Ether, where do you live?

If Northern Virginia area, you're more than welcome to come and shoot mine.

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Smith & Wesson is dead to me.

If you want a Smith & Wesson, buy USED!
 
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Mike Irwin

Staff
<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Tamara:
Seeing as how the gas pressure in the cylinder retards the movement of the slide, I'm just dying to have someone explain to me how a fouled gas port caused the slide to "short cycle" rather than cycle too fast for the mag spring...

[/quote]

Keep dying. It does the soul good. :)

You do bring up a good point, which may have been the cause of the problem. I assumed that a round not being stripped from the mag was caused by short cycling, and when I took the gun apart the gas cylinder and stem (NOT the port) were grody nasty dirty.

When I cleaned them, functioning returned to normal.

Now that you've had your petty little nitpick answered, go away. :)


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Smith & Wesson is dead to me.

If you want a Smith & Wesson, buy USED!
 
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Wallew

Moderator
I have only one complaint about all HK firearms. As a gunsmith, it is impossible for me to order parts for any HK. Believe me, I've tried. And then I go see a friend of mine who works for an AUTHORIZED HK dealer and he orders me anything I want. That's my only complaint about HK (I own 3 USP's). All of the above about the P7 are true, to one degree or another. If you want an expensive production HK, consider the Socom 23. Last time I looked, it was rapidly approaching $2 grand. And HK's don't like lead? Only if you don't clean them. Yes, you can clog the piston after shooting 100 - 1000 rounds, but how often, in real world will you do that??? I really like my HK's. Having said that, I traded my used P7 M8 away. Too small for my hands. Replaced it with another USP in 45.
 
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