Even with right to carry... are we not still made helpless?

[Pointer]

In Salt lake City recently...

About 2100 hrs an attractive woman riding the commuter train...

was verbally accosted and given unwanted sexual advances...

She moved to another seat amongst several other passengers... for safety?

The perpetrator followed her and attacked her and beat her silly and broke her nose and bashed her some more...

In a state where about 50,000 citizens have CWP's... not one person on the train had a gun...

No one wanted to get the very big assailant on themselves and so they did nothing while the woman continued to be beaten nearly to death... no one yelled for him to leave her alone and no one even called 911.

If someone had had a gun... should they have used it???

The fact that no one had a gun is... POSSIBLY because they weren't allowed to carry a gun to the workplace, and they couldn't leave a gun at the tram stop if they did. So they would have had to leave it home...

What would I have done had I been there? I carry anyway... Job be damned...

I think I probably would have shot the perp in the a$$ and got off the train at the next stop... if I were to stick around, my fellow citizen's would probably have called 911 on me and I'd be defending myself from some sort of legal charges... and maybe a lawsuit...

Yeah, yeah, I know the RAMafications of shooting someone in the a$$...

What would you have done? And how?

 

[SecDef]

Armed or not I would have gotten involved.

I do not understand why you would propose an illegal resolution to the problem.

Do you have a source for this or is this hypothetical territory?

 

[The Tourist]

Armed or not

You bring up a good point. Whether or not anyone was armed, it doesn't make a gun a requirement to help the woman. But I'm not surprised.

More than 20 years ago there was a song called "All's Quiet on East 53rd." It's the true story of a woman who was beaten to death while dozens of people in adjacent buildings heard her scream. No one did anything.

In a past debate we discussed our obligation to get involved in the security issues of a stranger. The overall consensus was that it was a bad idea for our own safety and the liability.

Still, watching and listening to a woman get beaten...

 

[wingman]

I would tend to agree in many ways we are helpless,really depends on the state,county, prosecutor and judge at the time of the crime.

With over 50 years of public schools teaching people to be victims many in our courts believe that all is good if everyone is a victim. Many prosecutors are looking for a camera to increase their position and many judges just lack common sense.

If you defend anyone(that includes yourself) you need to have money and if you use a gun in that action you need money and a good lawyer. Life in new America requires lots of green no matter if your right about your actions and as our population increases our rights and abilities to defend ourselves will decrease.

 

[Alleykat]

More than 20 years ago there was a song called "All's Quiet on East 53rd." It's the true story of a woman who was beaten to death while dozens of people in adjacent buildings heard her scream. No one did anything.

Same kind of miscreants who send Klinton and Schumer to represent them in the U.S. Senate.

 

[tlm225]

If you go back to to some of our "what would you do" threads you'll find that a lot of the members of this board probably wouldn't act. They have stated that they will act only if they are personally in danger.

 

[hogdogs]

Draw my Buck 110 and go in with the intent to stop the attack! I ain't about to watch any punk azz thug assault a woman or even an honest lookin' male! i ain't know champ boxer but I assure you, my haymaker lands deep! If I was ccw carrier I would not be on a train... I think they are off limits to ccw in most places.
Brent

 

[Pat H]

I can't speak for Utah law, but in most states including mine it's perfectly legal to use force to stop an assault on the person of someone other than yourself. Where you shoot them isn't relevant, the point in the assault is. If the perpetrator has completed the act and is half a block away, you cannot simply pull a gun and shoot. If the assaulter is in close proximity to the victim, and you determine additional injury is imminent, you can use force to prevent that.

It's always best to live in a state where self defense isn't just legal, it's encouraged by the culture, the case where I live. It's also best if you familiarize yourself with the laws of the state in which you live, including talking with local CCW instructors several times a year if need be.

 

[A/C Guy]

No easy answers.

I would have called 911, then gotten involved.

 

[hogdogs]

I too, have noticed that alot of the membership of this board is only about the ME ME ME factor. I feel inclined to follow the writing of my florida defense law. It simply states that I can use ANY force to REMOVE the threat of imminent damage or death to myself or another. I also choose to live in a place where defense of myself or another will be deemed such. I will never call 911 first... that is a waste of precious moments allotted to me to act.
Brent

 

[bushidomosquito]

Years ago I came out of a bar with 3 buddies and we walked through the parking lot to find some guy holding a woman against the hood of a car by her throat, slapping her silly and calling her things I've only heard rappers say. I took a full beer bottle that I had snuk out of the bar and landed it right on top of his head. He went down only to be picked up by the throat and recieve the same treatment he had just dealt the to woman by one fella in our group whose sister had just been beaten by her boyfriend. That guy was so messed up by the end of it all that we decided not to stick around to deal with the legal ramifications.

Bottom line; You don't even need to bring a gun into it. If someone is beating on someone they are probably to preoccupied to see you coming from behind with the nearest heavy object to put a stop to it. And don't stick around to see how the cops feel about it.

 

[The Tourist]

I also choose to live in a place where defense of myself or another will be deemed such.

I offer this bit of advice to you because we are both in the same boat. Think of who you are, and then imagine the circumstances when the dust settles and the law arrives.

As members of TFL, we view ourselves as "the good guys." The posse. The guys who react like white knights when the rest of world stores their cajones in their sock drawer.

When the law arrives, there you will stand, a biker in his road rags, holding the quintessential biker knife, covered in blood amid a screaming, rattled crowd of sheeple.

About one year ago, I had this same debate with several retired police officers and one retired federal prison guard about the 'aftermath' issues that Massad Ayoob discusses in his "Win in Court" series.

And frankly, my feelings vacillate. That's why I left my last post off with those three dots.

My gut tells me to wade in, take no prisoners, save the woman, do the right thing.

My head warns me that in many cases the 'the victim' might have "battered woman syndrome," only to find that ten seconds later she's weeping over the dead aggressor and selling you out to the cops.

The person you are is 'old school' but living in the new reality. Laugh if you want, but if you step out of the 1960's rife with black/white principles, you might find your actions are the focus for a world that no longer tolerates us.

 

[hogdogs]

These days you will find me wearing typical red neck duds (no better lookin' than the "biker duds") ... there are days when them ol' black sleeveless shirts are dress of the day... When I was wearin' "colors" I woulda done the same thing. However there woulda been a 30 foot single wide tire burnout leavin'! I don't do public transit.
As for TFL bein' the posse... the whiteknights... I do not see it from the regular posters! The posse would not tolerate transgression against other citizens. Whiteknights just step up and do what is needed to protect others with chivalry. Ramifications be DAMNED!
I am neither the posse nor a whiteknight as well I am not a vigilante... vigilante is from spanish or french? I am an english speakin' red blooded American citizen... When I intervene in any confrontation I look very quick at the participants, both voluntary and involuntary ones. if the perceived aggressor is clearly upper handed I will stop it. If the victim is a rapist/murderer he will than get his day in court. If the victim seems to be a TRUE victim I am going for broke! If I were to jump in it is highly likely that I won't be the first witness to the assault. That being said I hope the witness' are honest during interviews.
Brent

 

[SecDef]

I can't speak for Utah law, but in most states including mine it's perfectly legal to use force to stop an assault on the person of someone other than yourself. Where you shoot them isn't relevant, the point in the assault is. If the perpetrator has completed the act and is half a block away, you cannot simply pull a gun and shoot. If the assaulter is in close proximity to the victim, and you determine additional injury is imminent, you can use force to prevent that.

It's always best to live in a state where self defense isn't just legal, it's encouraged by the culture, the case where I live. It's also best if you familiarize yourself with the laws of the state in which you live, including talking with local CCW instructors several times a year if need be.

But do you think it is legal to then run away as was proposed?

 

[buzz_knox]

But do you think it is legal to then run away as was proposed?

No, it's not. Use of force against another person, especially use of deadly force, is illegal unless there is a justification. If you run and never offer the justification, you simply become another perp the authorities will be hunting. When they catch you, you'll be hardpress to make out the affirmative defense as people tend to believe that "flight equals guilt" notwithstanding any legal principles to the contrary.

 

[Handyman]

In the state I live in - guess which one it is - if you defend yourself using lethal force , even if your life is in extreme danger , you might as well resign yourself to the fact that you will be broke for many years . If you try to protect a stranger , you are totally screwed . MOST people here are extremely anti gun , liberal , sheep . Here , its usually the criminals that are treated with more respect than honest people .

 

[The Tourist]

I am not a vigilante... vigilante is from spanish or french? I am an english speakin' red blooded American citizen...

Oh, I know. And if there's one TFL member that's akin to my way of thinking it would be you and the unvarnished way you state your case.

Take a look around. How many of us do you see? Have you noticed that room echoes from emptying out?

In fact, as justified as we could make the argument, are you ready to be sued by the family? Are you ready to stand there, capable and strong, and get whacked with a "disparity of force" defense?

In the other thread I stated that I would clearly desire a concerned outsider to defend my wife. However, the world is murky.

There's a part of me that wonders if I should ask, "Look, lady, I'm about to cut this aggressor up so bad his own mother won't be able to identify the body. Are you undergoing counseling for "battered wife syndrome"? Is this guy a bill collector or process server? Are you a street-walker that lifted his wallet? No? Okay, great, sign this waiver right below where it says confused biker, and stand aside 'cause sometimes the arteries spurt..."

 

[sw_florida]

The beaten woman was probably a Democrat and an anti-gun type. Time to reconsider for her, perhaps...

 

[Wildalaska]

More than 20 years ago there was a song called "All's Quiet on East 53rd." It's the true story of a woman who was beaten to death while dozens of people in adjacent buildings heard her scream. No one did anything.

Her name was Kitty Genovese, it was 1964 (well before the GCA btw and at a time when carry permits in Queens, NYC were a lot easier to get), she was murdered by a man named Winston Mosely (who I have met, btw and who can best be described as a psychopath)...

And most of th stories about uncaring witnesses watching her being murdered is untrue.

WildjustsotherecordiscorrectAlaska ™

 

[The Tourist]

And most of th stories about uncaring witnesses watching her being murdered is untrue.

Without hijacking the thread, can you tell us the true story? I had always thought, "Nobody saw it, nobody heard."