Estate Sales

[BarryLee]

A friend called and told me about an estate sale in a local neighborhood which included a few guns which she thought I might want to check out. So, what the heck, I drive over to take a look and they had a few old hunting rifles and one S&W Model 19. The handgun was priced at $750 which I felt was too high and the lady working there told me she was contracted to handle the estate sale and couldn’t reduce the price without speaking with the actual owner. I then asked her if she could legally sell the gun if she wasn’t the owner and she just looked at me quizzically and said, “well sure”.

I have no plans to go back and buy the gun, but just curious how this situation should be handled from a legal standpoint. I realize an individual could sell me the gun with no paperwork, but this sounds like a business.

 

[Pahoo]

Not always Legal !!!

Yes, I've run into this a couple of times and there were laws being broken. The way it should work, or at least, in Iowa, is for the seller to sell the firearm to you give you a receipt and after an designated waiting period, You go to their designated FFL dealer where you take procession and do the paperwork. If it's a handgun, our waiting period is 3-days and you need either a Permit to purchase a handgun, or a CCW card or the dealer phones it in. The seller and FFL dealer can designate the time and place of doing the transfer. ....

Sadly at one "auction" I saw a buyer, claim his handgun, pay the price and walk out with his handgun. ....

At another auction the auctioneer stated that no one that could not legally buy a firearm, had no business bidding. That's as far as that went and how pathetic. .....

As a Patron NRA member, we don't need these kinds of black-eyes ....

Be Legal and;
Be Safe !!!

 

[thallub]

Here on OK estate sale auctions are often conducted by auctioneers who lack an FFL.

In the case of estate-type auctions, the auctioneer acts as an agent of the executor and assists the executor in finding buyers for the estate’s firearms. The firearms are possessed by the estate, and the sales of firearms are made by the estate. In these cases, the auctioneer does not meet the definition of “engaging in the business” as a dealer in firearms and would not require a license. An auctioneer engaged in estate-type auctions, whether licensed or not, may perform this function, including delivery of the firearms, away from the business premises.

In the case of consignment-type auctions held on a regular basis, for example, every 1-2 months, where persons consign their firearms to the auctioneer for sale pursuant to an agreement as described above, the auctioneer would be “engaging in the business” and would require a license. The auctioneer would be disposing of firearms as a regular course of trade or business within the definition of a “dealer” under §_921(a)(11)(A) and must comply with the licensing requirements of the law.

https://mikebrandlyauctioneer.wordpress.com/2010/01/17/a-guide-for-auctioneers-selling-guns/

 

[kilimanjaro]

Our local auctioneer does obtain background checks before the transfer. I've never had to fill out a 4473, he's not an FFL, but he's checking out the buyers.

Bidders are registered, with ID and a credit card to get their bid card.

So far, I've not seen any modern arms in his auctions, just the usual deer/duck guns, and curios and relics, including handguns, but how crucial is it to intently scrutinize a sale of an M1912 Roth-Steyr Austro-Hungarian pistol to someone with identification and the time to sit and wait through 300 lots of estate stuff before his street weapon of choice comes around?

 

[357 Python]

In Virginia the Estate Sales operator acts as an agent of the seller and can sell the same as a face to face private seller. I bought a Remington 870 Wingmaster from an estate sale about 10 years ago with no problems at all. The Estate Sales operator is not in the "business" of selling guns. They are in the business of selling a deceased person's estate for the family or heirs. Most of the estate sales I have been to recently firearms were not available.

 

[BarryLee]

Hey thanks for the feedback.

Sorry if I wasn’t clear, but this wasn’t an auction. It was an event held in a private home. I basically drove into a subdivision, walked into a house and saw the guns on a table in the den. The estate sale was being handled by a private company. The various items were labeled with a price and these folks simply took your money. Anyway, just a little unsure if this was somehow considered a private sell or something else.

 

[Tom Servo]

The situation thallub linked to is a bit different. The problem there was that a dealer was using a 3rd party to sell his merchandise, and that the transfers took place at an unauthorized location.

As for the ATF opinion, this is the germane part:

Persons who conduct estate-type auctions at which the auctioneer assists the estate in selling the estate’s firearms, and the firearms are possessed and transferred by the estate, do not require a Federal firearms license.

If this isn't a regular thing, it really doesn't fall under their authority. The main exception is this: if it's a handgun being transferred to an out-of-state resident, then it has to go through an FFL.

As far as Georgia law goes, there shouldn't be an issue.

 

[kilimanjaro]

Sounds like they're acting as agents for the estate, selling the stuff on. Those are private sales from the estate to the buyer.

Some estate firms will buy the estate outright and then rent the location from the estate to avoid packing and moving to another site for sale. If they buy the goods, they are owners not agents and probably in business would have to have an FFL.

Either way, Prudent Man requirements exist and they would have to satisfy themselves in some way they are not delivering a gun into the wrong hands, by seeing some ID to verify residency, age, etc., as a minimum.