Enfield and remington 700 questions.

[SteelJM1]

I figured I'd kill two birds with one stone.

So there's a gunshow coming up in about 10 days here, and i've been itching to pick up an Enfield no.4 for a while now. I'm not sure exactly what to look for though, despite the research I've been doing on it. The only thing I gleaned from that was to check the headspacing. I'm hoping there is a gunsmith around that would be kind enough to let me borrow (or rent) his .303 brit headspace gauges for a day. Aside from that, I don't really care if the numbers match or not or if it's particlarily good looking, as long as it shoots decently. Actually a beat up one would probably be cheaper. But is there anything else particular to the Enfields I should be on the lookout for and/or stuff that a gunshow seller would tell me to try to hike up the price when it's not exactly true or relevant? And finally, what is the going rate for one of these boys these days.. field grade?

Now for the next question... if I should fail to find a satisfactory No4, I was going to purchase a lyman no. 57 peep sight for my remington 700 in .243. My question is do I have to get a different front sight for that as well? And how exactly does it mount into the 700 reciever because the pictures I've seen of the sight doesn't make it obvious.

Thanks.

 

[wpsdlrg]

As to the Enfield, I've never owned one....but the things to look for are the same as with any other milsurp (or old) rifle. Overall condition....any rust present..... bore condition.... does the bolt operate smoothly.....any apparent damage to the bolt or receiver, esp. the locking lugs on the bolt.... condition of the wooden furniture....and of course, the aforementioned headspace test (this is VERY important).

As for the Lyman sight on your Rem. 700.... if your receiver is already drilled & tapped for scope bases, then the Lyman sight base mounts using the existing holes (just be sure to get the model designed for the 700). So, no problem there. You WILL have to change your front sight blade, as the height of the Lyman sight, above the bore centreline, will be different than the stock sights.
Here is a link to the Lyman Products website....specifically a .pdf file with installation instructions for the model 57 sight. Included are tables for calculating how tall the front sight blade will need to be.

http://www.lymanproducts.com/lyman/sights/pdf/LyC_Sight_57.pdf

 

[hammie]

hello from glendale, AZ. I love the .303 cartridge but I've never had much luck with SMLE's. The problem has never been headspacing but instead the oversize chambers. Even by just sizing once fired brass so that it now headspaces on the shoulder, I still get case or imminent case separations on the second firing (and that's after decreasing the headspace so that the boltface scrapes on the cartridge head.) As you know, the bolt heads are removable and numbered from 0 to 3. "0" is the shortest and they increase in length by .003 in ("1" is .003 in longer that "0", and "2 is .003 longer than "1" etc.) Normal headspacing is .064 to .074 for the SMLE. I guess if you can't find a gunsmith with a .303 headspacing gauge, you could take an unfired case and mike the rim and then shim behind the cartridge until the bolt won't close. The actual headspace would be the sum of the rim thickness plus the shim thickness. I gave up on my #4 and found a pattern 1914 enfiled for my .303 shooter. The brass reloads forever. What I wish is that remington or ruger would make a special run of rifles, chambered for .303 Brit. I think that there would be enough of a market for them. If not here, then certainly in canada or australia.

 

[Slamfire]

So there's a gunshow coming up in about 10 days here, and i've been itching to pick up an Enfield no.4 for a while now. I'm not sure exactly what to look for though, despite the research I've been doing on it.

Look for a No4 MkII. These are the best. Best barrels, all the improvements. Next best are the Canadian, Longbranch No 4's.

Look for a new barrel, matching bolt and receiver numbers.

Then best overall condition.

You can buy bolt heads to adjust headspace, but rest assured, it won't matter and it will be frustrating. American 303 headspace gages are wildly different from whatever the British used. A British Lee Enfield, all matching numbers, will swallow the American No Go gage.

You should only neck size ammo after you shoot it. Regardless of headspace.

 

[kiwi56]

Lee Enfield

The No4 mk 1 and mk11 are generally considered to be the stronger of the Lee Enfield actions. From a historical point of view I can understand you wanting a Lee Enfield but in my opinion the pattern 14 is a better and stronger rifle for shooting. The P14 is certainly a more rigid action and was so often the choice of taget shooters when involved in long range competition.
Don't get me wrong the Lee Enfield is a great battle rifle and is often considered to be the greatest bolt action battle rifle ever made. The action is certainly the fastest bolt action I have ever shot. Unfortunately most of the Lee Enfields down this way have shot out barrels or are just plain worn out.
I was lucky enough to buy a batch of five Lee Enfields still packed in grease and wrapped up in the manufacturers grease paper. These were among the last made in 1955 which were part of a shipment made for the Irish constabulary. The rifles were put in storage as it was found that the M1carbine was far more suitable for use in urban situations. I have sold four of my rifles but the last one I am going to keep.

 

[mp25ds4]

the main things i would worry about is the bore condition, metal comes next then wood. If the bore is S*** theres nothing you can do because enfield barrels are rare, metal can be reblued but its alot of trouble, lastly wood can be replaced, unissued stocks are still out there on gunbroker and ebay.

 

[Tikirocker]

G'day ...

The P14 is a fine rifle but if it was so good why didn't the British Commonwealth continue with it with mass distribution, as they did with the SMLE? The P14 saw limited use even during WW1 and during WW2 was only found in the hands of rear echelon troops or with the odd sniper.

The No1 is a superb Battle rifle and an excellent target rifle when set up correctly. Of nearly 80 years of Fullbore 1000 yard target shooting in the Commonwealth, you rarely ever saw the P14 used .... it was always the Lee-Metfords in the early days, followed by the SMLE, then the No4's. SMLE's have been known as 1000 yard target rifles since the 1920's.

You get a lot of misinformation on Enfields that are drawn from opinions ( plenty are 2nd hand ) - rather than facts.

# - No4MKII barrels are no better than wartime No4 two groove barrels - the British RSAF factories tested this during wartime and found the number of grooves made no appreciable difference; it was merely a manufacturing expedience during wartime to speed production.

# - Bore condition is important but don't let a dark bore be a barrier to purchase since many pitted barrels will shoot accurately and have plenty of life left in them. Check the throat, crown and leade if you care about accuracy, though the stocking up will be the next biggest factor for that. If you care about accuracy, then slug the bore of your Enfield so you get a snug fit ... then hand load.

# - The issue of the No4 action being stronger than the No1 is negligible. I shoot with men who have nearly 100 years collective experience of Enfield's - not to mention jackets dripping in Queens badges. I've never heard a single story of the No1 action failing - I've never seen one either.

I have also seen plenty of POF rounds fail and the shooter never knew it until they extracted the round ... the gas porting of the Enfield is excellent, they are perfectly strong and were designed to be. Few if any rifles have served as long as the Enfield, with so many nations, over so many wars - and continue to do so, like the Enfield. So if you think the Enfield has a problem ... think again.

# - The concept that the Longbranch is a better rifle than the Savage or British No4's is also apocryphal. It seems that this little story gets around because somebody wrote it in an NRA guide - the Enfield collecting community would surely like to know where they got that idea from?

All factories building the No4 Mk1/Mk1* had a high standard of manufacture and quality control. When these rifles left their respective manufacturing facilities they were all made right, no factory was better than the other. In big manufacturing facilities the machinery was set up for mass production and so at times you might have seen an error - this could happen at any factory.

Unfortunately people confuse usage and wear with a standard of manufacture and quality control. I own a Savage No4 Mk1* and a Longbranch No4 Mk1* - based on usage and condition I would say the Savage was the better rifle. This does not mean the entire line of Savage rifles were better made than the Longbranch rifles. I've seen No4's in various states of usage and wear but I have never seen anything to support the idea that one factory made a better No4 than another ... that's nonsense.

BSA rifles often have rushed or messy markings ... but the Fazakerley No4's do not. The neatness of the markings don't make a difference to how they shoot.


# - As to case life ... I don't know anybody shooting the Enfield who can't get 5 reloads bare minimum out of the same case - I know guys getting up to 20! Back off your loads and load for the middle range, fire form, neck size and only FLS when you absolutely have to. We discussed this issue here a little while back, do a search and you'll find some interesting info.

# - There is a very good reason to want an Enfield to have a matching bolt and that is because when they were built at factory the bolts were specifically matched to have a perfect mating with the lugs - this ensured that they were symmetrical and flush. If they were not so - or canted by the smallest degree - then this could effect accuracy. A bolt from another gun in an Enfield is questionable for this very reason - it is not an issue of collector snobbery that has us looking for a matching rifle - it is practical.

So important was this mating of the bolt that REME/RAEME field unit armorers would also re-number the bolt in the field if it needed replacement to ensure the bolt stayed with THAT rifle. There is nothing wrong with an Enfield that ignorance of them won't fix. If you want solid info on the Enfield visit the Enfield forum in my signature.

Tiki.

 

[SteelJM1]

Hmm, didn't know that about the bolt, Tiki. I knew that you could change the head of the bolt on the no. 4's to vary the headspacing, but I didn't realize that they were matched to the receivers. I'll do some more research on that forum, thanks.

About the lyman sights again - as far as the front sight is concerned, I will be hunting and target shooting with my 700, how do people feel aobut the hooded anshutz style front sight with the interchangeable sight pictures vs. the regular hunting open dot?

 

[kiwi56]

P14 vs smle

What killed any chance of the P14 was the advent of the first world war. it was considered easier to step up production of the SMLE than to tool up for a new rifle and with so many surplus Lee Enfields after WW1 and an uneasy truce during the 1920s, following this you also had the depression beginning in 1929 all of these factors contributed to keeping the SMLE in service for more years than it probably should have been. Not to detract from the SMLE it is a great battle rifle and the p14 as a battle rifle would show no major improvements over it.

 

[Tikirocker]

The truth of what happened to the P14 vs the SMLE is a little more involved than the broad strokes oft repeated from some sources. This idea that the SMLE was ready to be ditched and replaced is overblown, especially when you consider broader sources for information on the subject matter.

The reality is that the SMLE was still a very new rifle design by the time WW1 came along. The issue was purely political as always; there was a faction within the MOD and certain elements within the British Military - plenty of them best described as armchair experts - that still had fears about the British design when they remembered how well the Boers had done with a Mauser.

The SMLE was a totally different rifle to the early types used in the Boer campaign and massive improvements were made and lessons learned as a result of that war. Without turning this into an essay, the bottom line is that some elements felt we needed a Mauser design because the Boers had done well with it against us ... this attitude however was entirely irrational as was later proved by the complete success of the Enfield SMLE in the early months of WW1.

It was quickly proved that the P14 was not a good battle rifle, it was prone to jamming in dirty or muddy conditions and was quite unforgiving in trench warfare. However, in these very same circumstances the SMLE proved itself to be right at home and kept on trucking despite the mud, filth and rain ... it remained accurate and was rugged. The British troops were unanimous in their approval of the SMLE as were the commanding officers. My Great Grandfather carried the SMLE in the trenches of France in 1915, ending his service in India in 1917. He had no complaints of the SMLE either.

When word came back from the front that the SMLE was meeting all possible expectations, plans for the P14 were shelved and the P14 was then largely relegated to light duty, sniping - where it excelled if kept clean - and some small unit actions. It was quickly realized the the P14 was a bit too sensitive for general battle use and those within the MOD and General Staff were quickly silenced as to their doubts about the SMLE.

Australia manufactured, kept and maintained the No1 MKIII/MKIII* Lithgow for WW1, WWII, Korea and the Malayan Emergency ... it served my countrymen superbly. If anyone doubt the effectiveness of the SMLE as late as the 1950's no less, go look for the Battle of the Apple Orchard in the Korean War when Australian troops charged a much larger NK/Chi force and wiped them out. Even in the 50's the Australian army was still going to war with the Enfield bolt action ... and winning.

The No4 which replaced the No1 for British and Canadian forces during WWII only came into large production midway through WWII. The No4 is essentially the exact same rifle as the No1 but was merely simplified for faster production output with a new improved rear sight and a slightly heavier barrel. After WW1 they had years to radically change from the SMLE design if they had wanted to ... did they? No they didn't; The No4 is the same as a No1 in nearly every other way.

The P14 never got going after the early months of WW1 when the SMLE proved itself a better battle rifle - it was also the main rifle for Commonwealth 1000 Yard Target Rifle events since the 1920's.. It was and still is a great shooter and a great bit of history.

Tiki.