EMS workers and Concealed Carry??

[brianidaho]

I am a Community First Responder in our local EMS system. For those that are not familiar with the term CFR is based on a training protocall below that of a EMT basic. We are in a rural community, and as the name implies are typically the first on scene. I also have a concealed carry permit, and carry regularily on calls. We are a small department, and at this time have no official policy on CCW. I have not at this point discussed this with our EMS coordinator.

I am wondering what other EMS providers do? Is there a specific protocall in your jursdiction? We are strictly a volunteer organization, I'm not sure if this would make a difference.

In our recent recertification course, one of the issues that came up on a video, was the appropriate response when a scene goes south. In this case, the EMT's were on scene with a patient, when another person in the household comes at them with a (large) knife. While they are discussing the appropriate response, all I can think is...front sight....center of mass....

Bri

 

[444]

I have been a certified paramedic for 17 years. I have spent the last 10+ years working for a fire department and Tueday I will begin working on the busiest paramedic rescue in the US. CCFD, Rescue 18.
We have a very clear policy on firearms in the work place. They are a definite no-no. On a call, in the station, in the parking lot; verboten. Over the years I have been on some hairy calls but have never had a need for a gun yet. Certainly I would feel better with one, but it ain't going to happen. If your department has no policy against it, I would carry. If you are on that call where a guy comes at you with a butcher knife you already have a good plan. Stuff like that does absolutely happen.
I have been attacked by someone weiding a knife twice in my career. The first time I jumped on the guy, taking him to the ground. I was wrestling with him when a K9 unit came to the rescue. The second time I talked my way out of it with an oxygen bottle in my hands as a last ditch defense. Same outcome, the police arrived and kicked the guy's A**. I could have avoided the second one; we pulled up and this guy was on the front lawn beating the hell out of his wife. I couldn't sit there and let it happen. When I got out, so did the knife.

 

[Kharn]

Maybe it would be good to keep a handgun under the driver's or passenger's seat in the front, and an Asp in your pocket or on your belt? That way, a crazy patient wont be able to get the gun, and you can defend yourself or break windows (to get into building to help someone, like the little old ladies who hit their medical alert buttons) with the Asp.

Kharn

 

[Dennis]

Our local FIRE/EMS is funded by county tax dollars. We were told that made our FIRE/EMS buildings and equipment (trucks, ambulances, etc.) government property and firearms were prohibited by law (including our CHL law).

"Just to be sure," the EMS Director prohibited weapons of all kinds.
- - - -

Thusly we were limited to "weapons of opportunity."

As 444 noted, an O2 bottle has a nice grip (called a "valve"). A lightweight defibrillator can become an awkward but effective shield against a knife attack. Holding so-called paramedic shears by the metal part (fingers through the grips) can make a decent force multiplier. Other traditional items include pens, pencils, the edge of a clipboard, etc.

Nothing, however, is as good a backup as a 6 foot 4 deputy sheriff who is grateful to EMS for saving his kid's life.

As an EMT-B my ultimate goal was protecting myself and my paramedic. Other goals may have been a very close second, but dead heroes don't save people the next day.

Speaking of dead heroes, the grief felt by members of the emergency services (LE/Fire/EMS) has not waned since 9/11. Please remember they went to their death in service to others.

 

[Tommytrauma]

Review your regs

"I have not at this point discussed this with our EMS coordinator. "

Review your regs. If it's not addressed, I'd simply continue to keep my mouth shut and go about my business if I were you. Stay safe.

 

[fed168]

It would be best to discuss it with your supervisor first. Not having a policy in place is about as bad as a bad policy, check to make sure.
When we have a hot call, say a GSW or serious assault, EMS stages and we either tell them or they ask if the scene is secured. I do understand that maybe harder to do in a rural setting, though, so a sit down with your boss maybe in order.

 

[brianidaho]

In my department, I think the odds of violent attack are really pretty small, given the rural nature of the area, and the fact that we are usually dealing with our neighbors in one form or another. On the other hand, any kind of domestic disturbance can get out of hand pretty quickly. If we are on a domestic call, we will stage and await the arrival of law enforcement.

There are a couple of arguements for "don't ask don't tell" that kind of work in my case. As an all-volunteer department, we are on call from home, ect, at all times. The fact that I am carrying at such time is my business. In addition, we respond to CFR calls in POV's, rather than a departmental vehicle. I've pretty much decided in a scenario where we have multiple responders, if things look iffy, I'll "back out" on the hands-on patient care (assuming there is sufficient manpower on hand) and keep up an assesment of scene safety, with the thought of getting my crew out of the situation if necessary.

Another concern that I do have is insuring that the weapon remains concealed. I carry with a IWB holster, with a shirt bloused over it, in summer carry. This works fine in most cases, but in an emergency scene you are often bending, streaching, etc in such a way that the chance of the weapon becoming visible go way up. I try to grab a light vest to improve cover when responding.

444, thats a pretty scary record, being attacked by guys with knives twice. I respect what you do, as a full time EMS provider. We are a very small department, you probably go on more calls in a busy day than I make it on in a year.

Bri

 

[Bill Barrett]

I don't have a problem with a volunteer system CFR being armed (CCW) when responding annd at a scene. They come as they are and nobody should even know. At work firearms are prohibited by Mgt. and I don't carry. I knew that when I went to work as a paramedic there.

We "stage" away from scenes where a high index of potential harm is present until PD clears the scene. Sometimes this takes a while. I have been called in from staging by PD to a secure scene to find an empty holster stashed under some stuff on a table so they sometimes go oops.