El-Presidente (Shooting Stage/Level - Is it applicable in Real Life".

[stdalire]

Respected Sir/s:

I don't know if my topic would fit under this forum.

The Old movie of Bruce Willis "The Man Laststanding". His main opponent there named Hickey in the movie uses El-Presidente technique. Being the main assassin of the other gang, he is expert on that style.

What is your opinion too. Is this technique applicable to real life? I know it is being done in IPSC, but is it applicable in real encounter as a cunning way.

Thanks,

[This message has been edited by stdalire (edited February 20, 2000).]

 

[pluspinc]

Don't look for an OPINION. Ask if ANYONE can find you ONE real case that is documentable and verifiable. I've never seen it after reviewing over 900 videos of real shootings. I've got a good imagination but can't think of a case where it would work. Remember, the bad guy dictates the activity, not us. It is self-DEFENSE, not self-offense.

 

[WESHOOT2]

Exactly what 'style' are we referring to?

 

[stdalire]

Westshoot:

The style I am referring is Stage 8 of IPSC. "El Presidente". Where your back facing the range, and turn around, draw and fire to the target.

As pluspinc said, is there any ONE real case? on this technique.

I am doing it as a part of a practice, but is there any real meaning into application in the street or self defense.

Thanks

 

[Rosco Benson]

Do bad guys ever try to sneak up behind their victims? Does a bear...well, never mind.

The ability to pivot 180 degrees and engage an attacker should certainly be within the trained shooter's skill set. There are a couple things to consider however. In the early years of Gunsite, Jeff Cooper taught a karate-based pivot which was quite fast. It was, however, flawed because it presumed that the shooter KNEW from the outset that he was going to fire at targets to his rear. Absent eyes in the back of our head, we can't know that in advance and we can't go around pointing pistols at people every time there is a commotion behind us. Jeff changed the pivot to include having a look to the rear before committing to presenting the pistol. Do likewise.

It is also worthwhile to consider that the "El Presidente" was conceived as a DRILL not as tactical instruction. Given that the El Presidente postulates SIX targets behind the shooter (3 targets, each engaged with a pair of shots TWICE...once before and once after the mandatory reload), attempting to stand pat and fire a pair on each of SIX attackers would give attacker #6 an awful long time to press his attack before he was under fire.

The El Presidente was conceived as a drill and a test. Jeff Cooper used it as part of the graduation test for a contingent of presidential bodyguards from a latin American country...hence the name. The drill is actually a pretty good test of a shooter's mastery of combat pistol craft. It tests smooth movement (the pivot), fast shooting at reasonable range, the ability to transition fron target to target, and one's ability to speedload. If one needs to see, in a very concise and quickly-administered manner, if a given person can handle his pistol, the El Presidente is a pretty good test.

Rosco

 

[James K]

I guess I never understood "El Presidente". If a bodyguard were to turn around and fire, he would neatly dispose of the VIP he is supposed to protect.

A bodyguard is not looking at the VIP, with his back to a potential assassin, he is facing the cheering crowd, with his back to the VIP. He doesn't move his body a lot, but he moves his eyes constantly. And his first move will not to be to shoot, but to cover the VIP, and take the bullet himself.

In many cases, shooting at the attacker is the last thing to do, since innocent citizens will be in the line of fire. That may be necessary as a last resort, but it is not the first option.

Jim


[This message has been edited by Jim Keenan (edited February 19, 2000).]

 

[Erik]

Jim,
If you're talking about Secret Service type bodygaurding, yes. There are enough of them to be looking everywhere at once. They also train to get in the way first, then maybe fire their weapons second. Usually they don't, they swarm the threat.

As for the technique - it is never a bad idea to have too many skills mastered. Will you need them? Probably not. But to say that you shouldn'd practice them is simplistic.

Erik

 

[Rosco Benson]

Once again, the El Presidente was not conceived as an example of a proper tactical response, it is just a drill...a test of gunhandling and coarse, quick combat marksmanship.

A man who can turn in a decent performance on the "El Prez" MAY be a good man to have along in a fight (I say MAY because there are skills other than shooting which are important). A man who cannot shoot a good score on this drill is seriously deficient in combat markmanship and/or gunhandling. That's all. The drill is not intended to teach us or tell us anything further...particularly not how one ought handle an attack by multiple adversaries.

Rosco

 

[stdalire]

Thanks to all of the comments:

Rosco Quote: "The drill is actually a pretty good test of a shooter's mastery of combat pistol craft. It tests smooth movement (the pivot), fast shooting at reasonable range, the ability to transition fron target to target, and one's ability to speedload. If one needs to see, in a very concise and quickly-administered manner, if a given person can handle his pistol, the El Presidente is a pretty good test".

I may add also that it shows how a shooter can control his movement and still grab & aim his pistol with accuracy to the target.

 

[Red Bull]

I think it is a good drill for shooting skill, but I think it developes on very bad habit: Why on earth would you ever want to stand erect in one spot and engage three targets?
This drill teaches you to stand in one spot, wide out in the open and engage three threats with double taps. Totally bad technique IMO.
First, if you have multiple threats, you want to shot each one once and them come back. Don't spend time double tapping one while the others are shooting you. Seconds, and most important, you would never want to stand there in the open when threats are engaging you. Shooting back is usually the last thing you do, first you get the hell out of the way and find some cover, or push your primary out of the way if you are protecting someone. You don't stand there and engage the targets head on.

I heard a story (just a story, who knows...) of a cop who was off duty and walked in on a jewelry store robbery. The pulled his pistol and did exactly like he practiced: he shot the three robbers El Prez style. He stood there right in the open and gunned them down one at a time very efficiently. But, he was killed in the process. he should have found cover, THEN fired.

You react like you train, and training yourself to stand in the open and engage targets one at a time is a very poor way to train yourself to react.

 

[pluspinc]

You react like you train, and training yourself to stand in the open and engage targets one at a time is a very poor way to train yourself to react.
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
First of all we do NOT react as we train. A good theory but not reality based on videos of real shootings. Shoot two shots? Is there a limit? I doubt any of us could even count to two in such a situation. If three or four or more were needed and we reacted as we train, we'd only shoot twice? I'm baffled as how that would work. Which is it?
It is confusing and that is the problem. We want to make self-defense rocket science. It is not that confusing nor complex.
Such "drills" do nothing to address reality.
There is a limit on how much information the mind can process when in a state of fright. It is not unlimited. If we overwhelm the ability to think we grid lock. The menu has to be made SMALLER to increase the ability of the mind to sort through it all and find something it can apply. A good thing those that endorse the rocket science concept don't teach sex. We'd be so hung up on position and tactics we lose track of what we started out to accomplish.

 

[WESHOOT2]

Oh, that style.


Test only, good for comparing with others.


pluspinc, do you think rigorous training has any value?


------------------
"All my ammo is factory ammo"

 

[Ricky T]

Like Roscoe Benson said the El Pres. is a shooting skill and gunhandling test. It's not a test in tactics, street application, etc.

 

[Guy B. Meredith]

What Red Bull says applies to all IPSC routines. Some of the people who started IPSC became disenchanted that it had become a game, sanitized and removed from real life. They went out and founded IDPA.

While IPSC drills may showcase shooting skills, there is a total lack of tactical concept including use of cover. Time is everything, accuracy is second and real world consideratons do not exist.

A local dentist was killed shooting at a couple of gunmen in his house and I would not be surprised to find that he was using tactics required to pass the local CCW test or out in the hallway in the open in true IPSC style.

 

[Strabs]

Read Louis Awerbucks "Hit or Myth" and/or "Tactical Reality".

 

[DAVE MOON]

I second Strabs

 

[Red Bull]

Pluspinc-
We have heard your diatribe on how you think we will react in such a situation, and frankly, we are not impressed. Go bark up another tree.

Weshoot2- you can find this conversation under the thread titled " muscle memory reflex?". Basically, what it comes down to, si that you WILL react how you train according to physiologists on the issue, and according to real life events, but according to a cognitive science "expert" there is a point where you will be SO stressed out that performance falters. We all know that there IS a point that you will stress out so much taht perfomormance falters but #1 where is that point and is it defferent for different people and #2 the more training you have and the more practice you do the less likely it will happen (cops have poor training and no practice, therefore they are a bad example)
I have been shot at, and I have returned fire, and I care less what the armchair analysts say, I remember it vividly, each occasion, and I did react how I trained. If I had not, I would not be here to type this. Pluspinc has his opinion on this, we have all heard it, but he thinks if he continues to say it it will become more true. Frankly, the rest of us are tired of arguing with his loudmouth opinions. Go read the thread and you will understand, it is actually a pretty goood reaming of Pluspinc's fallacies. There is a part one and a part two. Do a search.

Aw heck, I will post the links so you don't have to search:

Part 1
[Link to invalid post]

Part 2
[Link to invalid post]

 

[pluspinc]

luspinc-
We have heard your diatribe on how you think we will react in such a situation, and
frankly, we are not impressed. Go bark up another tree.
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
Nice gun rag logic without ONE scientific source or educated source. All you showed up with is an OPINION. May I refer you to a few scientific texts and a few scientists? Or would that be a brain strain. Now you know why we have problems. Self-reinforcing gun rag logic on par with the information we get in bars. I'll bet you don't invest money on tips from bartenders. Well then again.....
Try to PROVE MMR exists. You will NOT find it in one medical or scientific journal unless it was printed in the last few days.
An attitude of "it won't happen to me" reminds me of how AIDS gets around.

 

[WESHOOT2]

Frankly, regardless of how much IPSC-style shooting I do, my mind is trained to run screaming for cover if the **** hits.

Know what I mean?

Besides, most of my shooting is through the chrono, or off-hand groups..........

------------------
"All my ammo is factory ammo"

 

[James K]

Let's lighten up a little. Some of you may have seen this, but...

[The item below was sent as a letter to a real magazine (not named Pistolero) with a note saying that it explained why the writer would not renew his subscription. No reply has ever been received.]

It was this way, Pete...

Like you probably know already, I read Pistolero magazine and really think it is the greatest, so I try to follow all the good advice they give on combat shooting. They have a lot of real experts who really know their sh... I mean, stuff, let me tell you.

Well I got all the equipment those guys say you need to be a great combat shooter, and I practiced a lot, then I got a concealed weapons license, and I felt ready to take on the world.

Maybe you don't think much of that, I mean the business you're in. Oh, you say you used to carry concealed yourself? I guess I remember reading about that - your boss really didn't care for the idea, did he? But I guess that is another story.

Anyway, one day - or rather evening - I was downtown in the city, and I see this young guy coming along and he looked like one of those punks, I mean really bad, and he walked up to me, or really sort of swaggered, like they do, and said, "Give it up man, all of it." Well he didn't even have a weapon showing, but I could see the bulge in his jacket, so I knew he was armed, so I did all the things I read about in Pistolero about combat shooting.

First, I put on my custom shooting glasses ($300 from See-em, Inc., Blotz, GA) and then my custom fitted ear protectors with the smart circuitry that blocks the sound of shots but lets you hear a pin drop at 200 yards ($500 from Muff-em, Inc., Klotz, NM). Then I pulled down my Pistolero cap with the gold braid. Then I had a problem because I didn't know whether to use an isosceles stance or a Weaver stance. Finally, I decided on the isosceles stance, and assumed a perfect position.

Then I drew my custom super accurized .45 ($6000 from Slick-em, Inc., Flotz, AZ) from its custom made, perfectly fitted holster ($700 from Draw-em, Glotz, IL). And I took a perfect two-hand hold, facing the punk squarely, and got ready to fire.

One handed? No, I never heard of shooting a handgun with one hand - I never saw
anyone in Pistolero do that! Standing? Of course, I was standing, and right out in the open, too. I could have maybe ducked behind a car or a building, or even dodged to one side, but that wouldn't be macho and in Pistolero, no one ever takes cover. Pistolero readers aren't cowards, no sir!

Well, to make a long story short, the punk pulled out a cheap, chrome-plated Yorkin .380 ($39.95 from Throw-up, Inc., Plotz, CA) and put three slugs in my head, and so, here I am. And he didn't even use the proper stance! I guess he doesn't read Pistolero, because he didn't play by the rules and you just can't respect that kind of guy, no way!

But I don't know what I did wrong, Pete. I followed every rule I saw in Pistolero about combat shooting. I just don't understand.

You say that maybe I was a little too eager to get in a shootout, but defending yourself is OK? So I can go in now? Thanks a lot, Pete, I mean Saint Pete.

By the way, is there a combat range up here? And can I get Pistolero forwarded? It's really a great magazine.