Effects of Too-Hot loads on Contender?

S

SL1

New member
I am wondering what the effects of too-hot loads are on the original style Contender. I have one in 30 Herrett, and am still trying to figure out how to build loads that are at the top of, but not beyond the gun's comfort zone. (Not my comfort zone, the gun's.)

The cartridge seems to have been designed to shoot a case full of IMR-4198 at about 48,000 cup, but loads in manuals don't seem to go there anymore. Manuals have loads that are all over the place, with cautions about large variations in free-bore in different barrels causing wide variations in acceptable loads. (Mine has about 0.3" of free-bore with a Hornady 130 gr SSSP bullet.)

Accurate Powder's loading manual says that Thompson Center told them to keep Contender loads below 42,000 psi, but TC claims to have no memory of telling them that. And, the original Contenders have been barrelled in higher-pressure cartridges with the same case head size, like the .375 Winchester and the 6.5 JDJ. So, I am trying to figure out how to load the thing for long gun life as well as substantial power.

In another online gun forum, someone wrote "I have an old contender a 195000 range. It tore up quickly with the 375 jdj I shot about 50 times. ... I have to send it to TC now." I wondered what he meant by "torn-up," and asked, but got no response.

So, I am asking here: What are the signs in brass or gun metal that I should be looking for to tell me that my Contender is not comfortable with my loads?

SL1
 
S

Scorch

New member
Way back when, TC Contenders were billed as being nearly indestructible. That said, I have seen many Contenders over the years that were shot loose due to unwise loads. With conservative loads, a Contender can last a lifetime.

I am not sure of the pressure limits for a Contender, but I used to have one in 357 Herrett, and if I loaded it too hot I would get case head separation on the first reloading, so I suppose I would say that if you are getting case stretching that severe, you should probably back down a bit.
the original Contenders have been barrelled in higher-pressure cartridges with the same case head size, like the .375 Winchester and the 6.5 JDJ
Click to expand...
375 Winchester has a SAAMI max pressure of 40,000 PSI, IIRC, same as the 30-30 Win, so it is not a high pressure load. Anything with the JDJ name attached will have pressures in the 50-60,000 PSI range. That pressure is how he gets the performance out of them. Those laods will be hard on a Contender.

Just a funny tale for you to wrap your mind around:
From 1982-1986, I worked as a gunsmith. We had a lot of customers who were silhouette shooters, and we did a lot of special work on silhouette pistols. One day a customer comes in with a contender in 35 Remington, asking if we could open it up to 358 Winchester. We looked at it and after consideration we said yes. Rechambering it was no big deal, just open up the chamber with a reamer. We took it out to test fire it. First shot, it belched a ball of fire about 3' in diameter, but when the gun was opened there was no case in the chamber. Huh, must have already opened and ejected it, we thought. Second shot, same thing, but we were watching to make sure we did not automatically open the action because we wanted to look at the fired case. Opened the action, no case. Hmmm. Third shot, same deal. Open the action, no case. What we figure was happening is the action was unlocking and reclosing under recoil. Never did find the cases, but we did not want to turn a customer loose with essentially a recoilless rifle, mostly because we did not feel like going to jail. Took the barrel off and took a torch to it, bought the customer another barrel and told him to leave it alone.
 
S

SL1

New member
Thanks for the info.

Thanks for the info. But, I don't think I want to go to head separation before backing off the charge!

I have been considering monitoring case stretch with my loads. They grow now with a standard (Hornady) sizing die backed-off to not touch the shoulder. But, that could be from the slight resizing of the case body that still occurs. I've ordered a Lee collet sizing die that will resize the neck without touching the case body. Thus, case length growth should come only from case stretch in the axial direction when firing the cartridge. I'll go back and work-up loads again to see if the case stretch increases with increasing powder charge. (Yes, I know how to monitor the case wall for thinning and incipient separation.) But, I'm still not sure what to think is an OK degree of case lengthening per firing. I don't want to stretch the pistol frame. I note that the G2 contenders were beefed-up along the top edge of the frame. Do you know if that was do to frame streching in the originals? Have you seen original style Contenders with stretched frames?

With respect to the .375 Winchester, the original pressure standard was 52,000 cup. That is much higher than the original .30-30 standard of 38,000 cup. But when going from cup to psi, SAAMI typically reduced the values for straight cases and increased the values for bottleneck cases. Some of that had to do with correlation between the old and new measuremnt systems, but part was also due to the standards committee members' considerations of the guns available in those cartridges and their desire to down-rate cartridges they considered "too-hot" for some available guns. (E.g., the 35 Remington is a bottleneck case, but its standard went from 35,000 cup to 33,500 psi.) Of course, the 6.5 JDJ has no standard, but Accurate is loading it to about 48,000 psi. It has the same case head size as tne .30-30, just a smaller rim. I don't need to stick with .30-30 pressures because of brass limitations, because I can make 30 Herretts out of .375 Winchester brass or even 225 Winchester brass (50,000 cup and around 60,000 psi.)

Regarding your mystery with the .356 Winchester: I think I would not have pulled that trigger the third time. That brass case must have been going somewhere fast enough to be dangerous, even deadly! I would probably have tied the gun to a tire, wrapped it in a thick pile of rags, and pulled the trigger from afar with a string. Hopefully the rags would have told me where the cases were going. Too late for that, now. Some mysteries will never be solved

SL1
 
H

Harry Bonar

New member
contender

Sir:
Contender/Encore are both "break-down" actions, like shotguns/double rifles.
Pressure in copper units even for double rifles are most around 40,000 to max 45,000 CUP! For heavy double African rifles, or shotguns, or Kerston lock bolt systems or Beretta that's OK., but for the "handi-guns" and Contender/Encores that chamber cartridges giving CUPs' of 50,000 to 55,000 CUP I totally will not work on them. I do not like them due to this fact and as for the Encore, it doesn't LOOk like a rifle anyway. Not to demean but that's just my personal opinion.
As precision as fine Africal double rifles are fit, extended use causes them to "go off the face" and loosten up. So do the contender/Encore. I'm not intimately familiar with either contender or encore but I understand that the breech of the bbls. do not contact the breech but the cartridge base protrudes slightly establishing headspace further weakening the system. Also, on the few contenders I've seen it appears that the "locking lump" on the barrel bottom was welded on!
Someone correct my opinin if I'm wrong. I can learn but this is just my opinion as of now.
As to the "mysteryious" case vacancy it proves my point - the only explanation is the one you give!
Harry B.
 
N

NOWUS

New member
Interesting Post,

I have an Early TC that I have been shooting/hunting since very early in there
production ( can't remember exact year, CRS ).

Started with a 35 rem 14" handgun./scoped, excellent Deer gun, very accurate.
Also used a Rugger 357max. Decided to try a 357max rifle barrel for the TC and use it for Hunting ( Kills not to clean at 100 yrds )
So, I had a 356W Barrel made (18 Inch ) , Leopold Compact scope, and
Choate Folding stock, Nice carrying Deer rifle,

Now, The 356W DOES Get your attention, Quite a little snap,, Need to keep it
on your shoulder or ' Instant Eyebrow mark''

Have fired some fairly hot loads, ( hard to open ) and other signs .
So Far about 400 Rounds of 356, Most of them 5% below max loading.
Note: Factory loads also seem Hot

I am getting a little concerned about the strength of the frame after all the
rounds it has fired.
Looking for a G2 Frame to replace it for the 356W barrel.
I think I would feel much more comfortable with the heavier receiver.
I'll Put The 357Max back on the TC frame and semi-retire it...

Really do enjoy hunting with the TC,
 
S

steveno

New member
I don't know how old your TC is but make sure it has the split locking lug. if you have the one piece lug a heavy recoiling round will unlock the action and you will find yourself looking at the case head.
 
N

NOWUS

New member
Please, More info on Split locking lug,

The Frame is quite early production, 35 rem barrel same date

357Max is a newer TC barrel , 356W is a custom barrel about 8 years old...
 
S

steveno

New member
just look at the locking lug. if it is a 2 piece there will be a split right down the middle. I don't think that a 356 winchester is the caliber for a contender in my opinion because of the pressure and case head size. another thing that can happen when you shoot a lot of real heavy recoiling loads in a contender is you can deform the pivot pin. I have seen it happen on a 44 mag load with a lot of heavy loads.
 
N

NOWUS

New member
Yup, Now I remember. The original 35rem still has the split lug.
The Custom 356W does not,

I chose the 356W for the semi rim( no shoulder spacing problem like the 35Rem)
and the additional case capacity , The 356W has a thicker brass than the 358W
, same case shape less capacity.

I don't load to the 356W max loads, somewhere between 35rem and 356W.

I do agree that I may be pushing it ,That is why I am looking to get a G2..
 
W

Wapiti

New member
The frame will start to stretch on the sides right where the back of the barrel mets the table. If you look at the side of a freshly oiled frame, you will see a slight curve inward if the frame starts to stretch. Kind of a sunk in valley looking area.
I shot the life out of the very first Contender I owned about 4 or 5 years ago. It was a serial number 56xxx that my father gave me in 1973(I think). T/C replaced it no questions asked. I shot a virtual truck load of light, medium, heavy and wild loads of various calibers through it over the near 30 years. Including a heavily loaded .445 SuperMag load that wasn't fun to shoot, but was a great hunting round. I doubt that you could poke enough powder into a .30Herret case to hurt a contender frame. I have my .30 herret loaded pretty hot and it doesn't have a 1/3rd the recoil of the .445
 
N

NOWUS

New member
Thanks, checking mine as described...) 162xxx

Wonder what will happen with TC now that there owned by SW...

I want to get a G2 before to many changes take place...
Thanks..
 
S

SL1

New member
Wapiti,

Thank you for finally providing an answer to my original qustion! I will look at the frame as you suggest. (And I will look at the pin and pin hole, too.)

Do you mind sharing your .30 Herrett loads? I'm still groping around, wondering what max is for my gun/barrel.

If you share, please let me know how much free-bore your .30 Herrett has with your loads so I can tell if they are comparable to mine. My gun has about 0.3" of freebore for my Hornady 130 gr spire point loads. They don't seem to be too hot with 24.5 gr of AA1680. Recoil is about like my .44 mag. I have not chronograhed those loads, yet. I need to get some time to do that before I try to go any higher (or see if I even want to go higher).

Thanks of any info you are willing to provide.

SL1
 
O

onlybrowning

New member
Not to hijack, but I am currently sending an old style Contender frame back to TC for repair because I bought a new 6.8 spc barrel for it, and the barrel and frame do not mate tightly. I do not think it is the hinge pin, as there is up down movement as well at lockup. I can see that the shelf is quite rounded where the recoil lug goes, and have been suggested that this is the problem. My serial number is 80XXX, so it is no doubt, an older model. I'll let you know what they do.
 
H

Harry Bonar

New member
contender

Sirs:
For a long time now I've not approved of Encores or Contenders or the break down "handi guns" being put out with cartridges in the 55,000 cup range!
As before, African rifles (big ones) are limited to the 40,000 to 45,000 CUP pressure range due to the fact that they are underlugged secured. Bolt actions lock directly behind the cartridge head. African big bores (and small ones) lock under (usually) the bbl. and with the heavy loads cause them to go, "off the face."
I have heard of handi guns in the 50,000 to 53,000 cup range (and CUP doesn't in reality indicate the very "top" pressure.) disapprove of this even though major manufacturers do it all the time.
Honestly, it's just my opinion but these rifles are all going to stretch and give troubles. Case stretch is inevitable, witness the No4 MK I or II.
We have gone wild over high pressure and high velocities that to me are unnecessary. The African hunters "majic" velocity of 2400 FPS. with a fairly heavy bullet gives good penetration (the real agent of killing power) and wonderful killing power.
Let me really get myself in trouble when I say that none of us should be shooting at game at anything ove 200-300 yards - unwounded game that is!
I have people tell me, "I shot thar groundhog at 800 yards." You, if your an experienced rifleman know this guy, number one doesn't own a range finder, doesn't know how to use it or just has no (NONE!) idea of ballistics or what he is saying. The real range was probably was less than 200 yards!!
Ifeel, therefore, that pressures in all "break down" actions of any sort ought not exceed 45,000 CUP and probably even less!
Harry B.
 
S

SL1

New member
Case head size matters

Harry,

Pressure is only part of the cause of stress on the gun. The area over which that pressure is applied is another major part. The smaller the area it is applied over, the lower the stress that the pressure produces in the gun metal. Those African hunting cartridge cases you aer thinkng about are a lot bigger than the 30-30 case that the 30 Herrett is based on. And the Contender has a lot less metal than those African rifles. It is hard to draw conclusions form one to the other based only on chamber pressure.

SL1
 
N

NOWUS

New member
Re reading this post, And making use of all suggestions:

Question, Would anyone like to comment on relative strength of the
G2 Receiver vs the older contender receiver .

I would like to keep shooting my 356W barrel, SAFELY, and
need to decide if I should get a G2 or a NIB old style contender frame
( at lower cost )

Also, any leads on Prices of G2 frames ( blued ) , I see a lot of 300$.
Hoping to do a little better...
 
E

eastbank

New member
i wanted a 10 inch 35 rem. for a four wheeler gun that would be carried in a shoulder holster years ago, so i had a 10 inch 357 mag. barrel rechambered into 35 rem. as the rifeling twist is the same 1-16 for both barrels, it worked out super,one inch groups at 50 yds with 200gr. round nose factory bullets. eastbank.
 
N

NOWUS

New member
Really just want the frame, Plan on getting a Chaote Rifle stock and
using the forend from the TC,

But I may have to get whatever is cheaper...
 
You must log in or register to reply here.
Top