Effectiveness of pistol Calibers in rifles???

[ZWolfgang]

Since defense-use pistol caliber ammo tends to be designed for use in short (4 to 6") barrels, is one making a huge leap of faith to assume such ammo will perform reasonably well from an 18.5" carbine?

Case in point... I'm trying to determine what some excellent defense loads would be for .357mag, .44special, .45 Colt, and .44magnum. Problem is, the magnum ammo tends to become exceedingly fast from a long barrel, making the bullet which was designed to expand properly at pistol launched velocities probably expand too quickly at rifle velocities. And in the case of the relatively tame .44 special load, what would it do from an 18" barrel?

Has anyone here done any testing of pistol caliber defense ammo from a carbine - enough to recommend any specific factory loads?

I'd like to find a great home/camp defense load for each of the above calibers when fired from a 17" to 20" barrel. I don't need long distance rifle power.

Appreciate your thoughts.

 

[Double Naught Spy]

Pistol calibers are designed to be shot from shorter barrels. So, they have faster powder burn rates that bring the slugs up to speed quickly. For example, 9 mm was designed to be up to speed in a 4" barrel and .45 acp in a 5" barrel. So the powder isn't loaded to provide performance out of a barrel 3 or more times longer. According to data on the Beretta Forum, the Beretta Storm with a 16" barrel only generates about 100 fps more velocity than the same 115 gr. out of a Beretta 92 pistol. So there is not a lot of performance increase, but some. Informaton I have seen on .45 acp indicates that carbines may produce less, comparable, or slightly more velocity than what comes out of a 5" barrel.

What is the advantage of a pistol caliber carbine? You get a longer sight radius and in some cases you get more ammo capacity. The drawback is that you don't get much more performance out of the heavier platform, larger platform.

 

[OBIWAN]

You might try the terminal effects area on Tactical Forums

I know Dr. Roberts has sung the praises of 44mag and 45-70 carbines

The autopistol cartridges don't get much better in the long tube

But the old wheelgun cartridges have more potential

that being said....I believe in shotting rifle rounds from a rifle

 

[ZWolfgang]

Yes, my understanding is that .357mag and .44mag ammo increase in velocity and energy dramatically in a long barrel. I'm wondering how .44special and .45Colt do when fired from, say, a 16" short rifle...

 

[Double Naught Spy]

I don't recall 45-70 ever being a pistol caliber, but it is a fine carbine/rifle caliber and got a lot of use by bison hunters early on.

From http://www.logicsouth.com/~lcoble/dir5/carbine.htm
"Most pistol rounds will also gain additional velocity and power when they have a longer barrel in which to burn their propellant powder. The velocity gain is more pronounced with higher pressure rounds. Low pressure rounds like the .38 Special, .44 Special or .45 ACP gain little or no extra velocity, but higher pressure +P versions of these cartridges or "hot" handloads will pick up about 100 to 200 feet per second. Standard velocity 9mm rounds gain an average of about 250 feet per second which moves them up to roughly the same stopping power level as a 9mm +P+ or .357 Magnum handgun (which is very good). When .357 and .44 Magnum rounds are fired from carbines, they gain about 500 to 600 feet per second."

So it would seem that what should be of interest is not simply a pistol caliber carbine, but a high pressure pistol caliber carbine.

 

[45King]

I have a '94 Trapper (16" bbl.) in .45 Colt, and using the Lyman manual, I've cooked up a load using 255 gr. SWC's and 8.1 gr. of Unique that clocks out at 1068 fps. According to the manual, the MAX LOAD OF 8.5 GR. should generate 845 fps from a 7.5" Ruger Blackhawk bbl.

Some handgun cartridges will benefit from a longer bbl, and some won't. It would be interesting to start out with a 20" test barrel and chrono a specific load in it, chopping off 1" and recrowning after each shooting session. Then you can find an optimal length for a particular load. Not practical*, but academically interesting.

*What if the optimal length for a loads turns out to be 12"? In a carbine, it would have to be an NFA item, and who wants to lug a "Buntline Special" pistol?

 

[4 Wheel Drive]

For those who roll your own, is there much if any benefit to loading slower burning powder? For example, a 45 ACP with Accurate #7? I see loads in Accurate's manual listing the powder, and it seems to be close in velocity to their #5 but at lower pressure.
I tried some in my government model, and accuracy was ok, but I saw a lot of flash when firing. I suspect there is not going to be a significant boost in velocity, but......?

 

[45King]

4 WD, theoretically slower burning powders would work better, but since they are all pistol powders, the degree of "better" might not be significant. Then again, who knows without doing extensive testing?

I'm going to have to load some max Colt loads with Unique now and see how they clock out. I'm interested in seeing how much my extra 8.5" of barrel boosts the velocity over what the manual says for a 7.5" bbl. As I don't have a handgun chambered for .45 Colt, the results will still be theoretical to some degree.

I'm not a reloading "experimenter," though. I reload for the economy factor, and because of that, I'm not going to get into buying a bunch of different powders and trying them. I'm happy with the load I have, and I can't really afford to spend a lot experimenting.

 

[MASTERBLASTR]

22 lr....

cutting a barrel from 27" an inch at a time, the maximum speed was obtained between 20-22 inches.

when the barrel was larger than 22" it actually shed velocity.
when the barrel was shorter than 20" the was less speed.

why are you asssuming that longer barrels always give you more ft./sec.?

even .357 mag should have a midway point of at least 15 inches. from experience....


JOE

 

[MASTERBLASTR]

By The Way...

My 7mm Ihmsa Achieves The Best Presicion From A 19.6" Shilen Barrel, At 2650 Ft/sec. In A Rifle Configuration.

The 7mm Ihmsa Is A Handgun Caliber, Please Specify Or Give More Accurrate Description Of Handgun Calibers.

Joe

 

[Dave R]

Just curious--has anyone tried rifle powders in pistol cartridges in carbine barrels?

 

[gifted]

I was looking at getting a Berretta Storm carbine. Just for the heck of it. Probably use it in compitition when I get there.

Anyway, on topic, it comes in three calibers: .45 ACP, .40 S&W, and 9x19mm. Which caliber would be the best to go with here?

 

[444]

http://www.thehighroad.org/showthread.php?s=&threadid=45283&highlight=chrono

 

[ZWolfgang]

Finally got a chrony and did some testing for myself...

Some of you will know that I'm interested in finding good factory defense loads in .45Colt and .44spl. for use in 16" lever rifles. I don't have the 16" Trapper yet, so I chronyed these loads with my Marlin 1894's with 20" barrels.

Here are the results from four loads which I hoped would have promise. Only one, the CorBon, performed better in the rifle than in the pistol. The other loads all suffered from the long barrel.

The test rifle was a Marlin 1894 CBC in .45 Colt with 20" barrel and for the .44spl it was a Marlin 1894SS stainless .44mag with 20" barrel. Velocity was measured in my laundry room at 9' from the muzzle with a Chrony F-1.

CorBon .45 Colt 200 gr. JHP
Pistol: 1100 FPS / 537 FPE (factory data provided)
20" Rifle: 1451 FPS / 935 FPE (my chrony data) +351 FPS !!!! WOW

Winchester SilverTip .45 Colt 225 gr. STHP
Pistol: 920 FPS / 423 FPE (factory data provided)
20" Rifle: 852 FPS / 362 FPE (my chrony data) -68 FPS

Speer Gold Dot .45 Colt 250 gr. JHP
Pistol: 900 FPS / 450 FPE (factory data provided)
20" Rifle: 828 FPS / 381 FPE (my chrony data) -72 FPS

Winchester SilverTip .44 Special 200 gr. STHP
Pistol 6.5": 900 FPS / 360 FPE (factory data provided)
20" Rifle: 893 FPS / 354 FPE (my chrony data) -7 FPS

From this I would guess that with the exception of the CorBon load, when fired from a 16" barrel, performance of the other loads *might* be comparable to that from the pistol data, but with the longer 20" barrel, performance over the pistol length barrels is definitely hampered. Except for the CorBon, these loads are definitely designed for use in pistol barrels. If chosen for use in rifles, the best choice would be the short choice, a 16" Trapper!

Guess I'll be sticking with the CorBon from my lever rifles until I can find something better... the Georgia Arms loads look promising, I'll chrony them from 16" and 20" barrels when I obtain them. And when I get the Trapper, I'll chrony these same loads again... I suspect the poor performers here might do a tad better with a barrel which is 4" shorter.

Of course with handloads, it's a whole different ballgame, but my interest here is strictly in off the shelf factory ammo for defense against two-legged vermin at close range. The lever rifles are the second choice after my Mossberg 500 Persuader, which is definitely a fair bit more "persuasive" than the rifles.

 

[esldude]

Well have chrono'd 9mm out of a Ruger PC9 and Keltec Sub2000. The increase was anywhere from nothing to about 150 fps with about 100 fps being most common.
Heavy 147 gr. bullets gave about 50 fps and probably are your best bet. As this isn't enough velocity to upset the hollowpoint design parameters.

Have chrono'd Marlin lever action in 357 and many of the medium weight bullets go over 2000 fps. If this is a hollowpoint then that big a jump in velocity will likely make it expand too much and penetrate too little. Almost every load chrono'd went over 1750 fps.

Now what you gain are much lower noise levels should you use it indoors. Much more and much easier accuracy which will be highly beneficial under stress of a self defense situation compared to a pistol. And a huge jump in the ability to hit multiple or moving targets compared to a pistol. The big downside being the long gun doesn't handle as easily in tight spaces or indoors. You also gain very useful accuracy to 100 yards or bit more. Though if you thought you needed accuracy at that range a real rifle would be a better choice.

 

[gifted]

So, what about the other two calibers? I've read reviews on the 9mm version, but they didn't have the .40 and .45 versions to review, and so there's the possbility that one of them would be better.

 

[ZWolfgang]

I can't see shooting .45acp in a rifle myself, the velocityt would really suck! But the .40 Storm will probably be a good choice!

I heard that all of a sudden the military and police agencies have taken a big interest in Storms and that's limiting what's available to us. I've also heard that the 9mm version had a lot of "teething" problems... perhaps the Storm isn't quite ready for prime time, just yet.

 

[esldude]

Had a 45 acp in the Marlin Camp carbine. 100 yard hits were easy. Shot some 5 inch groups with 4x scope. I thought that pretty decent. And there wasn't much drop in the trajectory. I wouldn't sell it too short. You won't gain much power or velocity, but you get great quick aim accuracy. And it is a ***** cat to shoot quickly.

 

[Double Naught Spy]

esldude, the lack of drop probably has a lot more to do with sighting than actual .45 acp performance. Since the .45 acp isn't gaining any velocity from a 16" barrel, or not much and it may be losing some, I will point information from Bob Forker's Ammo and Ballistics II book.

Fired from a leveled barrel, not a barrel sighted to a particular range, even lighter +P rounds still drop at least 12" over 100 yards. The least drop I saw listed was 12.9" for Corbon 165 gr. JHP +P. 230 gr. loads in standard and +P pressures dropped 20-32" at 100 yards.

gifted, see http://www.berettaforum.net/cgi-bin/ubbcgi/ultimatebb.cgi?ubb=forum;f=7 to find out more about Beretta Storms. Personally, I think the 9mm is the best option if you are looking for a fun gun to shoot. 9 mm seems to do fairly well out of carbnes and it is cheaper than the other calibers. On top of that (and this may change if AWB sunsets), you CAN find preban hi cap mags for the Storm since they are the same Beretta 92 mags. I don't think Beretta has preban .40 and .45 acp hicap mags that could be used in the other two calibers, but maybe I am wrong. Even if wrong, the other two calibers don't have a large supply of preban mags out in circulation.

FYI, Beretta suggests not shooting much +P or higher pressure 9mm ammo in the Storm. I am pretty sure that will go for the other calibers as well, but I have no documentation to support this notion.

I have heard nothing about the military or police agencies taking a big interest in the Storm such that supplies may be limited to civilians. I can't recall anything at the Beretta forum. As for teething problems, check the Beretta forum. Some folks have had problems that might be significant. Most have not. The only problems with mine have been the occasional stovepipe while shootng Blazer ammo. I have had 4 stovepipes in just over 5000 rounds of shooting, 4750+ of that being Blazer and all stovepipes were with Blazer. Three of the 4 came after the gun was dirty with more than 300 rounds through it since previous cleaning and lubing.

 

[kidcoltoutlaw]

the 44 mag and the 454 rock in a 20 inch

the 454 gets 1976 with a 300 grain xtp the 44 mag gets 1775 and 1465 from a handgun thanks,keith