Effect of Crimp on Peak Pressure

FlyFish

New member
In my recent course to become certified as an instructor for NRA Metallic Reloading, the course counselor, and the NRA course materials, claimed that too much crimp can lead to "excessive" pressure. My contention is that the crimp is overcome, and the bullet starts to leave the case, well before peak pressure is reached and therefore, although there may be some negligible increase, it's far from excessive and not something that a typical reloader needs to be concerned with.

Among other reasons, I note that nowhere in any reloading manual have I seen specs for (not sure what they would be in any case), or even any mention of, the possibility that too much crimp could be a problem. I did find that Robert Rinker, in his otherwise excellent book "Understanding Firearm Ballistics," also claims that crimp can affect pressure. He doesn't seem to distinguish peak pressure from any other part of the pressure curve, so I don't necessarily disagree with him, just with the NRA claim that crimp can produce "excessive" pressure.

I'm wondering if anyone here has real data, or a valid reference, that deals with this issue. Opinions are OK too if they can be supported, but I've already got plenty of unsupported ones.
 

mehavey

New member
While a decent crimp is important to good ignition on some powders (straightwall experience,)
I can't ever imagine "excessive" crimp leading to "excessive" pressure overall.
(Bending yield strength of brass is relatively low)

But I bow to Uncle Nick if he's on-line.
 

44 AMP

Staff
I would tend to agree with you. Particularly because of the terms used. Without actual numbers to illustrate an example, just what is "excessive"? Its an opinion.

Higher than usual, is certainly possible but is that going to be "excessive"??

You seem to understand there is a difference between measurable and significant. Some folks apparently don't.

Crimp certainly does increase the pressure needed to move the bullet out of the case. Sometimes this is a needed thing for proper powder ignition (think slow magnum powder pistol charges).

However, once the bullet begins moving, it's "past the crimp" and with modern progressive powders, burning all the way down the barrel (or most of it) before reaching "peak" pressure, crimp can't have any effect on that.

Crimp Effect on initial ignition (in the case) pressure, yes, effect on peak pressure (as the bullet moves down the barrel), I don't see how....
 

HiBC

New member
Unsupported opinion!

I just don't crimp my bottleneck rifle cartridges. I rely on neck tension.
So its moot for me.
With revolvers,I believe a strong crimp is essential. The primer alone can disassemble a loaded round from the freebored cylinder chamber to the cylinder gap and forcing cone.
IMO,the crimp is necessary to get enough pressure for good ignition.

I'd agree with you,I do not think the roughly .010-.015 thick relatively annealed brass neck crimp will,in itself, significantly increase peak pressure however!!
The way to prove that as fact is to take measurements. We cannot intuitively know all the dynamics and variables of interior ballistics.

I will ask you a similar question. Picture a .309 or .310 bullet entering a .308 bore.

I'll agree,initial pressure will be higher than a .308 bullet. But I expect it will be less than peak pressure.
Now,a key point: As soon as that bullet passes the leade and throat,and is engraved by the rifling, its no longer a .310 bullet. It has been sized down to .308,like any other .308 bullet. The friction should be the same.

My unverified theory is there will be an initial pressure spike to overcome the resistance of swaging. (Just like a crimp)

Once the bullet is swaged,or crimp is opened, thats done.

But the powder will have been thoroughly and completely ignited. It might be the retardant will fail to control burn rate. I don't know. Thats the "unknown" realm.

I can theorize shooting oversize bullets with slow burnrate powder could be a path to higher performance. Murphy's Law may punch a bolt body through my eye socket and out the back of my skull.
Some overlooked variable might come into play.

The folks with lots of money can buy the gauges to measure all that.

I do not have to find out the hard way.
 

MarkCO

New member
Nope, your instructor is propagating another old wives' tale.

In days of old, good crimps resulted in higher velocities and more consistent ammo. The assumption was that that extra velocity came from "higher" pressure. But it really comes from "more" pressure.

With pressure, we have peak pressure, but the area under the curve is what does the work. Good crimps give you more area under the curve. If you crimp "too" much, you just use up more of that work pressure and the actual peak pressure will never get to the same level as the "best" crimp will yield. But, I'd contend that whatever "extra" crimp you put in is inconsequential in terms of using up a lot of the energy, but it will degrade accuracy.
 

Generic

New member
I’ll start by admitting that I have no real useable data for you, just some anecdotal evidence.

When I first started loading 357 magnum, I was having some trouble with the bullets moving out of the brass while shooting. In the beginning, sometimes the 6th shot was long enough to interfere with the rotation of the cylinder. So, I experimented with the amount and type of crimp to use. The range I used went from just enough crimp that the 6th round would grow about .010 to enough crimp that it would leave a pretty decent “crushed groove” in non-cannelure bullets.

Some of my loads with a “heavy crimp” and near max powder charge would show signs of high pressure on the brass/primer area. The same powder charge with a lighter crimp would show less pressure signs. Does this mean that I was exceeding max pressure for the chamber? Doubt it. Without the ability to measure chamber pressure, it’s all anecdotal anyway.
 

Shadow9mm

New member
Just started loading rimmed pistol cartridges last year. My good friend who got me into reloading always told me a good firm crimp was critical for revolvers, both to prevent jump, as well as to help build good pressure in the cartridge.

I put as firm a crimp on as I am able in general.
 

rclark

New member
Only heavy loads do I put a 'heavier' crimp. That is only to prevent bullet creep that could tie up the revolver. That is really all the crimp is primarily there for. All other loads I simply do a light crimp into the crimp groove. Remember at the pressures needed to move the bullet, the case really turns to butter as far as the pressure is concerned and it just conforms to the chamber walls. The crimp really means nothing to the pressure generated behind the bullet. Walk right through it. Also note that 9mm and .45 ACP (examples) just use a slight taper crimp which works just fine.
 

reddog81

New member
You can only crimp so much before the case starts to buckle and you run into problems. The amount of force it takes for the bullet start moving will be about equal to the amount of force it took to crimp the bullet in place i.e. not that much.
 
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In general, a crimp by itself isn't terrifically strong. In a rifle, we know the ultimate equivalent of a super-crimp hold is to seat the bullet into the lands. This raises start pressure about threefold and peak pressures about 20%. The next harder level rifle "crimp" I am aware of was the one year the National Match ammo had tinned bullets that cold-soldered to the case necks in the 1920s. Not only were there high pressures, but bullets were retrieved from the berm under the targets that had case necks still attached to them that had been torn off and squeezed down and through the gun barrel with the bullet. Now tearing the neck off is some kind of hard pull!

The bottom line from the above: for medium power rifle cartridges, there is simply no way a crimp can take pressure beyond normal tolerances. Indeed, in all but one of the tests here, velocity decreased with crimping. The reason will likely be that it delayed opening the case mouth with the result that when the mouth opened and released gases that normally bypass the bullet until it obturates the bore. This would raise gas pressure so more escapes around the bullet before the bullet gets to the throat.

That doesn't always happen. This article shows almost 5% increase in velocity in a 300 Win Mag. I've looked at data from a number of sources, and a claim of 5.5% increase in velocity from crimping for a 45-70 is the largest published one I've spotted. I've seen 2% in 357 Mag, personally, but I haven't done a proper study of pressure and crimping to examine this in all its variations. Also, the 5.5% velocity increase was with a cast bullet. An uncrimped lubricated cast bullet is so easy to pull out it almost counts as zero bullet pull, and it isn't surprising a crimp could make a difference there.

The area under the pressure curve is proportional to average pressure, which, divided by bore cross-sectional area, is the average force applied to the base of the bullet during its trip down the bore. The only way to increase the area under the curve using the same amount of powder and the same bullet is to increase pressure. So if the crimp increases velocity, pressure will go up, too.

To know how much peak pressure goes up is trickier. It varies with powder burn rate and barrel length and the rest. I've never heard of a gun burst being blamed on hard crimps, but the pressure addition isn't necessarily insignificant. If you get a 5.5% increase in velocity from a fast powder that normally burns up completely in the gun, the peak pressure may have to go up over 30% to get there. This is because that 5.5% extra velocity represents 11% more area under the curve with no change in muzzle pressure, as the powder was already being burnt up and was making all the gas for muzzle pressure that it could before the crimp was applied. Plus, the width of the peak is narrower with a fast powder, so it has to rise higher than a slow powder's peak does to make an equal increase in area under the curve. With slower powders, in many cases, the powder isn't all burning up in the gun in normal conditions, so part of the increase in velocity in that 5.5% instance will be due to increased post-peak and muzzle pressure from the more complete burning of that slower powder, and the actual rise in peak pressure might be as low as 11%.

In QuickLOAD, I've been able to create an example where pressure from a 5.5% velocity increase went up 37% with Norma R1, about the fastest burning powder out there. This still falls short of surpassing a maximum proof load. However, while I could create that example in the software using a 44 Magnum and Winchester 231 powder, that doesn't mean a 5.5% velocity increase could actually be obtained by using a hard crimp with R1 in the first place. Indeed, I suspect it is mainly with slow powders that an increase occurs, as a fast powder doesn't need a hard crimp to reach its potential. Because it has a shorter pressure rise time, bullet inertia alone does more to keep the powder confined without the help of a crimp. This is also why fast powders tend to be more position-insensitive.

Bottom line, while some situations can be theoretically created where there is a potential pressure hazard, I suspect the odds of getting all the way up to the minimum proof pressure by heavy crimping are slim, and getting past maximum proof pressure will take some real work. So while the warning may have some theoretical validity, I'd need to see an example to believe it.
 

DMY

New member
I was getting a little unburned powder with my .38s and .45s with moderate loads and a fairly light Redding profile crimp. Also noticed my velocity was down. Switched back to the original roll and taper crimps, respectively. Velocity increased, but still had a little unburned powder and little soot on the outside case walls. Heavier loads didn't eliminate the issue. Went with a touch more crimp and eliminated all issues. When I pulled a couple coated bullets, the coating was gone at the crimp, but I'm otherwise happy with them. Crimp is good.
 
Curious. The whole point of the Redding design is to allow a tighter roll crimp than a conventional crimp shoulder does by having a taper crimp below the roll to block the tendency of a conventional roll crimp to lift the sides of the case away from the bullet below the crimp radius. I'm wondering why it was failing you in that regard. Note that you should expect the Redding crimp to take a bit more force to finish.

Did you record the differences in velocity you got? Would you mind sharing the specific loads and velocity changes so the pressure changes could be estimated?
 

FlyFish

New member
Unclenick - Thank you. I learn something every time I read one of your posts, and this time was no exception.
 
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