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Duplicating factory load
- Thread starter cpaspr
- Start date
For the most part it is nearly impossible to exactly duplicate a factory load.
The powders used are NOT the same as the ones available in canister grade.
You may be able to get the same velocity if that is all you are trying to duplicate, but the odds are pretty high you will have a slightly different powder weight.
The powders used are NOT the same as the ones available in canister grade.
You may be able to get the same velocity if that is all you are trying to duplicate, but the odds are pretty high you will have a slightly different powder weight.
Most/some, but not all. I believe that Winchester stated at one time that 296 was a factory load powder and that was why it did not have a wide range (not versatile) of use and not to be used as a "reduced load" powder.The powders used are NOT the same as the ones available in canister grade.
I assume you're talking about the .308 Winchester (My apologies if I missed the caliber). There are plenty of powders that will give you the velocity you quoted for the Remington 180 grain load at 2620. It's simply a matter of doing your load development. Reloder 15, Varget, IMR 4320 or 4064, any of those should easily meet your expectations.
While you might not know what powder Remington is using to make that velocity, there are plenty of powders that will push the bullet down the barrel. Which one is right for you? I dunno. Start low and work your way up.
While you might not know what powder Remington is using to make that velocity, there are plenty of powders that will push the bullet down the barrel. Which one is right for you? I dunno. Start low and work your way up.
Hodgdon's load site lists maximum loads for the 180 gr. Speer soft point that exceed that velocity when loaded with:
Varget
IMR 4895
IMR 4064
IMR 4320
BL-C(2)
Alliant's web site has two different 180 grain bullets, and shows both Reloader 17 and ARComp getting past your numbers with each one, respectively.
So, I don't think this is difficult. Just remember that standard velocity barrels are 24" for this cartridge, and if your barrel is shorter it won't run quite as warm.
Varget
IMR 4895
IMR 4064
IMR 4320
BL-C(2)
Alliant's web site has two different 180 grain bullets, and shows both Reloader 17 and ARComp getting past your numbers with each one, respectively.
So, I don't think this is difficult. Just remember that standard velocity barrels are 24" for this cartridge, and if your barrel is shorter it won't run quite as warm.
Thanks to all so far.
PawPaw - yes, .308 Winchester. Looking back I see it wasn't clear as it was all the way at the bottom of my original post, and only said ".308".
I understand we can't use the same powder Remington is using. Frankly, I think they don't even use the same powder themselves from lot to lot. But they do load to a consistent velocity for a given bullet shape and weight, so their ammo is fairly consistent, whether manufactured in 2011 or 2005.
My reason for asking what would be a recommended powder is this:
In doing load development for my .30-06, I was told that IMR4895 was a good powder for 150gr bullets, but was a bit fast for 180gr bullets. It would work, but IMR4320 would work better.
That's my thought here. IMR4895 will work, but will IMR4320 (or another powder) be a better choice, due to the pressure curve, burn rate, or other factors I can't even guess at?
PawPaw - yes, .308 Winchester. Looking back I see it wasn't clear as it was all the way at the bottom of my original post, and only said ".308".
I understand we can't use the same powder Remington is using. Frankly, I think they don't even use the same powder themselves from lot to lot. But they do load to a consistent velocity for a given bullet shape and weight, so their ammo is fairly consistent, whether manufactured in 2011 or 2005.
My reason for asking what would be a recommended powder is this:
In doing load development for my .30-06, I was told that IMR4895 was a good powder for 150gr bullets, but was a bit fast for 180gr bullets. It would work, but IMR4320 would work better.
That's my thought here. IMR4895 will work, but will IMR4320 (or another powder) be a better choice, due to the pressure curve, burn rate, or other factors I can't even guess at?
crowbeaner
New member
Check the Hodgdon booklet for your 180 data in the .308. It has loads for the 180 Power Point that can be closely duplicated. I use a lot of WW748, and it works very well even if a bit sensitive to temperatures. Hot temperatures mean hotter ammo with 748.
Cpaspr,
IMR 4895 is not too slow. National Match ammunition with 173 grain bullets was loaded with it ever since it was introduced during WWII. It just isn't the best choice mainly because it doesn't fill the case as well as some others. Most people report best results with something just a little slower. Slower gets better case fill, but I also suspect it just happens that the longer barrel time from the slower powders hits the sweet spots better on some common barrel lengths.
IMR 4350 or H4350 are two popular choices for accuracy loads with 180 grain bullets in .30-06. I have a couple good loads with H4350 for 180 grain MatchKings, but if I adjust them in QuickLOAD for your shorter Remington bullet seated to 3.185" COL (cannelure at case mouth) and using the Federal 210M primer, I get:
52.5 grains H4350
and
55.1 grains H4350.
Both are below Hodgdon's listed maximums in a Winchester case. I was using Lake City and Remington cases, which I find are pretty interchangeable, but use about half a grain less powder than the Winchester. These loads will bracket the velocity you are after, so I would work up from the low load to the higher load in 0.3 grain steps (see Newberry's method) until you find the most accurate load between them. It should be in a similar velocity ballpark to what you are after, but better tuned to your rifle.
IMR 4895 is not too slow. National Match ammunition with 173 grain bullets was loaded with it ever since it was introduced during WWII. It just isn't the best choice mainly because it doesn't fill the case as well as some others. Most people report best results with something just a little slower. Slower gets better case fill, but I also suspect it just happens that the longer barrel time from the slower powders hits the sweet spots better on some common barrel lengths.
IMR 4350 or H4350 are two popular choices for accuracy loads with 180 grain bullets in .30-06. I have a couple good loads with H4350 for 180 grain MatchKings, but if I adjust them in QuickLOAD for your shorter Remington bullet seated to 3.185" COL (cannelure at case mouth) and using the Federal 210M primer, I get:
52.5 grains H4350
and
55.1 grains H4350.
Both are below Hodgdon's listed maximums in a Winchester case. I was using Lake City and Remington cases, which I find are pretty interchangeable, but use about half a grain less powder than the Winchester. These loads will bracket the velocity you are after, so I would work up from the low load to the higher load in 0.3 grain steps (see Newberry's method) until you find the most accurate load between them. It should be in a similar velocity ballpark to what you are after, but better tuned to your rifle.
Here is some info from Hodgon.
http://data.hodgdon.com/cartridge_load.asp
180 GR. SPR SP IMR IMR 4007 SSC .308" 2.800" 45.0 2481 46,600 PSI 48.0C 2616 54,200 PSI
180 GR. SPR SP Hodgdon Varget .308" 2.800" 41.0 2470 41,200 CUP 45.0C 2661 49,600 CUP
180 GR. SPR SP IMR IMR 4320 .308" 2.800" 41.0 2407 43,500 PSI 45.4C 2665 57,900 PSI
180 GR. SPR SP IMR IMR 4064 .308" 2.800" 40.7 2445 44,100 PSI 45.2C 2683 58,200 PSI
180 GR. SPR SP Winchester 748 .308" 2.800" 46.5 2610 48,500 CUP
180 GR. SPR SP Hodgdon BL-C(2) .308" 2.800" 42.0 2460 40,300 CUP 46.0 2660 50,100 CUP
180 GR. SPR SP IMR IMR 4895 .308" 2.800" 40.5 2439 43,800 PSI 44.7C 2674 58,700 PSI
180 GR. SPR SP Hodgdon H
Jerry
http://data.hodgdon.com/cartridge_load.asp
180 GR. SPR SP IMR IMR 4007 SSC .308" 2.800" 45.0 2481 46,600 PSI 48.0C 2616 54,200 PSI
180 GR. SPR SP Hodgdon Varget .308" 2.800" 41.0 2470 41,200 CUP 45.0C 2661 49,600 CUP
180 GR. SPR SP IMR IMR 4320 .308" 2.800" 41.0 2407 43,500 PSI 45.4C 2665 57,900 PSI
180 GR. SPR SP IMR IMR 4064 .308" 2.800" 40.7 2445 44,100 PSI 45.2C 2683 58,200 PSI
180 GR. SPR SP Winchester 748 .308" 2.800" 46.5 2610 48,500 CUP
180 GR. SPR SP Hodgdon BL-C(2) .308" 2.800" 42.0 2460 40,300 CUP 46.0 2660 50,100 CUP
180 GR. SPR SP IMR IMR 4895 .308" 2.800" 40.5 2439 43,800 PSI 44.7C 2674 58,700 PSI
180 GR. SPR SP Hodgdon H
Jerry
Why in the world would you want to duplicate factory ammo? Do you not like accurate ammo, or do you not like consistent ammo? Develop a load that shoots well in your rifle, and you are way ahead.I'm trying to duplicate the Remington 180gr PSP Core-Lokt load.
Did you chronograph it or are you just going by the published lies . . errrr . . .manufacturer's claims? Most factory ammo runs well below the published claims, so many times you can actually exceed their claimed velocity.It's running fairly hot at 2620fps.
And even if you could, why would you want to? Chronograph some factory ammo and you'll see what I mean. Last time we did that, we saw about 300 fps range of velocity variation out of one box of 30-06.For the most part it is nearly impossible to exactly duplicate a factory load.
Doodlebugger45
New member
The heaviest bullet I use in my .308 is 168 gr, so I might be wrong when it comes to the 180 gr for .308. But my best results for .308 have been with Varget and RL-15. That's what I would stick with if I wanted to try 180 gr bullets as well. Those 2 powders just magically fill the cases it seems. The RL-15 consistently shoots a little more accurately in my rifle, but alas, it is $5/lb more than the Varget in my area, so I use both of them. For my needs, the optimum powder charge for those 2 powders is within a half grain of each other, typically about 2% less than Hodgdon's listed max charge for the bullet weight. Your rifle will vary, but it would be hard to go wrong with either of those powders.
Most/some, but not all.
So you think factory ammunition uses powders in the $20 a pound range for loading?
IMR-4895 and H-4895 started life as different batches of the 'same' powder.
The ammunition factories use NON-canister powders to control cost.
The purchase a huge lot, develop loads using it using pressure barrels, then proceed to load till there is not enough powder remaining for another run of ammunition.
They sometimes sell off the remaining powder, and it can be purchased at a bargain compared to canister grade powders.
Canister grade powders are adjusted, sometimes by blending between lots, to maintain a much tighter uniformity than any single lot exhibits.
This additional processing drives up the cost, but allows reloading manuals to be developed and used.
Many powders started off as bulk grade.
Some have been found useful enough to be made as canister powders with a narrower tolerance on performance.
If Winchester made the powder, they would not have to pay retail canister price, when they loaded their Winchester ammo, now would they? It seems logical that the price of canister powder would not have a bearing on the cost of non-canister powder. It likely is no more or less expensive to make than non-canister powder. If a powder company decided to sell some of its non-canister powder in canisters to the general public, they would likely charge the same as other canister powder.So you think factory ammunition uses powders in the $20 a pound range for loading?
I do not "think" anything, but I seem to remember a magazine article when 296 came out, that stated it was the same powder that was used in some magnum handgun load.
But, this is all supposition. How about someone who works in the gun powder industry answer the question for us, "Are there any powders used in factory cartridges (non-canister), that are offered to the public in canisters"? Winchester 296? Have there ever been in recent history?
Doodlebugger45
New member
Actually, in the case of Winchester, they state on their website that they use W-780 for "many" of their factory cartridges. I think it was either Nosler or Barnes who stated that one of their premium ammo loads used IMR-7828. But usually it's tough to figure out what blend of powders are in a factory cartridge. But who cares? We can do just as well using what's available to us.
If a powder company decided to sell some of its non-canister powder in canisters to the general public, they would likely charge the same as other canister powder.
Except they do not sell it for the same price as canister grade since it does NOT have extensive reloading data and tight performance control.
You can get bulk powders at a bargain price from a number of sources.
Some is left over from loading ammunition (not enough for another production run) and some is powder that fails to meet canister grade and the powder maker does not want to try and alter it.
W-780 for "many" of their factory cartridges.
Very unlikely to be a canister grade lot of W-870.
That does not mean it is NOT W-870, just not the exact same powder as the canister grade lots.
Powder manufacture is far less uniform than you would think.
Canister grades are more expensive to produce. A Hodgdon technician told me each bulk lot they order is tested for burn rate, then blended with held back lots that were especially slow or especially fast, depending which way they need to adjust the new lot. They bring the resulting blend to within 3% of a nominal burn rate spec for the powder for canister grades. The powder comes from the factory in drums, then has to be repackaged for sale to reloaders. So, canister grade powder purchased by shooters adds the costs of testing, blending, and repackaging that bulk purchases don't include. A manufacturer loading with a canister grade powder would presumably avoid the repackaging cost.
Commercial cartridges that meet SAAMI spec are loaded to maximum pressure specifications and to a velocity range specified by bullet weight when fired in a special tight chambered, specific length velocity test barrel. You can find the pressure maximums and velocity ranges in this document. The pressure and velocity barrel specs are also in the document. They have minimum chambers and barrel lengths specified within 0.010" (most often 24" for rifle cartridges), so it is not surprising commercial rifles often fail to meet the resulting claimed velocities.
The military has more specific requirements with both minimum and maximum pressures and as well as minimum and maximum velocities. Any lot of powder they get that doesn't produce results within both the pressure and velocity windows are rejected for use in the cartridge they were being tried in.
Here's a table of some powders I put together reading MSDS sheets.
Commercial cartridges that meet SAAMI spec are loaded to maximum pressure specifications and to a velocity range specified by bullet weight when fired in a special tight chambered, specific length velocity test barrel. You can find the pressure maximums and velocity ranges in this document. The pressure and velocity barrel specs are also in the document. They have minimum chambers and barrel lengths specified within 0.010" (most often 24" for rifle cartridges), so it is not surprising commercial rifles often fail to meet the resulting claimed velocities.
The military has more specific requirements with both minimum and maximum pressures and as well as minimum and maximum velocities. Any lot of powder they get that doesn't produce results within both the pressure and velocity windows are rejected for use in the cartridge they were being tried in.
Here's a table of some powders I put together reading MSDS sheets.
Code:
| St. Marks | | |
Hodgdon | Military | Winchester | Thales | IMR
| & OEM | | (ADI) |
___________________|____________|________________________|__________|_______________________
HP-38 | OBP231 | 231 | |
H110 --------------|--- WC296 --|- 296 ------------------|----------|-----------------------
H414 | WC760 | 760 | |
H380 | WC852 | | |
Lil' Gun ----------|-- OBP516 --|------------------------|----------|-----------------------
Hybrid 100V | SHP771 | | |
HS-6 | WC540 | | |
H335 --------------|--- WC844 --|------------------------|----------|-----------------------
BL-C(2) | WC846 | | |
Titewad | OBP132 | | |
Tightgroup --------|-- OBP242 --|------------------------|----------|-----------------------
Longshot | OBP473 | | |
US869 | WC869 | | |
-------------------|--- WAA90 --|- WST ------------------|----------|-----------------------
| WXC170 | WSF | |
| OBP124 | AALite (WFL) | |
-------------------|-- OBP465 --|- Super-Handicap (WSH) -|----------|-----------------------
| WC760 | 760 | |
| WC748 | 748 | |
-------------------|-- WMR780 --|- Supreme 780 ----------|----------|-----------------------
| SMP224 | AutoComp | |
Clays | | | AS30N |
International Clays|------------|------------------------|- AS50N --|-----------------------
Universal Clays | | | AS70N |
H4227 | | | AR2205 | IMR 4227 second source
H4198 -------------|------------|------------------------|- AR2207 -|-----------------------
Benchmark | | | BM2 |
H322 | | | AR2219 |
-------------------|------------|------------------------|- AR2210 -|- IMR 8208 XBR --------
H4895 | | | AR2206H |
Varget | | | AR2208 |
H4350 -------------|------------|------------------------|- AR2209 -|-----------------------
H4831 | | | AR2213 |
H4831SC | | | AR2213SC |
H1000 -------------|------------|------------------------|- AR2217 -|-----------------------
Retumbo | | | AR2225 |
H50BMG | | | AR2218 |
-------------------|------------|------------------------|- AR2215 -|- IMR 4198 second source
| | | AS25BP |- IMR Trail Bosscpaspr,
I do this quite a bit to be honest. I find a load that shoots well in some cheap brand load, that I simply cannot bring myself to buy more of. Usually when I purchase the limited factory ammo that I do I get two boxes. One is for testing and or the hunt I use it on, and the other if it's working out halfway decent is for my load development comparisons.
I try and gather up the needed components, other than powder, and then using my chronograph I use what he books suggest to get me in the range of velocity I am getting from the factory stuff. Sometimes it works out sometimes not. I can tell you it wasn't overly hard to work right up to the Remington 150gr CL loads, using IMR-4895.
All you have to loose is a few dollars in components and a couple hours of time.
Good luck
I do this quite a bit to be honest. I find a load that shoots well in some cheap brand load, that I simply cannot bring myself to buy more of. Usually when I purchase the limited factory ammo that I do I get two boxes. One is for testing and or the hunt I use it on, and the other if it's working out halfway decent is for my load development comparisons.
I try and gather up the needed components, other than powder, and then using my chronograph I use what he books suggest to get me in the range of velocity I am getting from the factory stuff. Sometimes it works out sometimes not. I can tell you it wasn't overly hard to work right up to the Remington 150gr CL loads, using IMR-4895.
All you have to loose is a few dollars in components and a couple hours of time.
Good luck
I occasionally toy with the concept of duplicating factory loads but quite honestly you can usually do better, I know I can. I like the RP bullets but have had better perfomance from Hornady's 3070 in this weight.
I'm amazed that factory loads perform at such a high level in a wide variety of rifles, my pet loads are great in one gun but often mediocre or worse in another rifle. I don't know how they do it but suspect powder has a lot to do with it. Since we can't (usually) use the same powder they use we have to do the best with what's available to us.
Federal Gold Medal Match seems to be the "gold standard" in .308 and a recipe using canister powders has been posted around here a time or two. If I were going to duplicate a factory load for .308 that's the one I'd go for.
I'm amazed that factory loads perform at such a high level in a wide variety of rifles, my pet loads are great in one gun but often mediocre or worse in another rifle. I don't know how they do it but suspect powder has a lot to do with it. Since we can't (usually) use the same powder they use we have to do the best with what's available to us.
Federal Gold Medal Match seems to be the "gold standard" in .308 and a recipe using canister powders has been posted around here a time or two. If I were going to duplicate a factory load for .308 that's the one I'd go for.