Dry Run?
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Scott Conklin
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http://www.nationalreview.com/comment/taylor200407211921.asp
Seems a bit convenient to me but that's supposedly the latest...
Seems a bit convenient to me but that's supposedly the latest...
I sent these articles to a friend who flies frequently, he replied with the following:
The exact behavior described in the article happened on a recent America West flight I was on from Phoenix to Sacramento.
I first picked up on it when I noticed the worried look and mumbling of the flight attendant handing out drinks. Six middle-eastern men in full traditional attire seated in different parts of the plane started to go in and out of the bathrooms. She freaked out when one of them came out of the restroom, took off his shirt, and moved out of her line-of-site to the rear doors of the plane (she bolted as fast as she could to the front of the plane to get help). Next the pilot came on the speaker and told everyone to return to their seats, but they were slow to comply.
It was pretty scary. Especially since my Glock was at home instead of in its holster in the middle of my back.
The exact behavior described in the article happened on a recent America West flight I was on from Phoenix to Sacramento.
I first picked up on it when I noticed the worried look and mumbling of the flight attendant handing out drinks. Six middle-eastern men in full traditional attire seated in different parts of the plane started to go in and out of the bathrooms. She freaked out when one of them came out of the restroom, took off his shirt, and moved out of her line-of-site to the rear doors of the plane (she bolted as fast as she could to the front of the plane to get help). Next the pilot came on the speaker and told everyone to return to their seats, but they were slow to comply.
It was pretty scary. Especially since my Glock was at home instead of in its holster in the middle of my back.
text of Washington Times article from JPFO
Scouting jetliners for new attacks
By Audrey Hudson
THE WASHINGTON TIMES
Flight crews and air marshals say Middle Eastern men are staking out airports, probing security measures and conducting test runs aboard airplanes for a terrorist attack.
At least two midflight incidents have involved numerous men of Middle Eastern descent behaving in what one pilot called "stereotypical" behavior of an organized attempt to attack a plane.
"No doubt these are dry runs for a terrorist attack," an air marshal said.
Pilots and air marshals who asked to remain anonymous told The Washington Times that surveillance by terrorists is rampant, using different probing methods.
"It's happening, and it's a sad state of affairs," a pilot said.
A June 29 incident aboard Northwest Airlines Flight 327 from Detroit to Los Angeles is similar to a Feb. 15 incident on American Airlines Flight 1732 from San Juan, Puerto Rico, to New York's John F. Kennedy Airport.
The Northwest flight involved 14 Syrian men and the American Airlines flight involved six men of Middle Eastern descent.
"I've never been in a situation where I have felt that afraid," said Annie Jacobsen, a business and finance feature writer for the online magazine Women's Wall Street who was aboard the Northwest flight.
The men were seated throughout the plane pretending to be strangers. Once airborne, they began congregating in groups of two or three, stood nearly the entire flight, and consecutively filed in and out of bathrooms at different intervals, raising concern among passengers and flight attendants, Mrs. Jacobsen said.
One man took a McDonald's bag into the bathroom, then passed it off to another passenger upon returning to his seat. When the pilot announced the plane was cleared for landing and to fasten seat belts, seven men jumped up in unison and went to different bathrooms.
Her account was confirmed by David Adams, spokesman for the U.S. Immigration and Customs Enforcement's Federal Air Marshal Service (FAMS), who said officers were on board and checked the bathrooms several times during the flight, but nothing was found.
"The FAMS never broke their cover, but monitored" the activity, Mr. Adams said. "Given the facts, they had no legal basis to take an enforcement action. But there was enough of a suspicious nature for the FAMS, passengers and crew to take notice."
A January FBI memo says suicide terrorists are plotting to hijack trans-Atlantic planes by smuggling "ready-to-build" bomb kits past airport security, and later assembling the explosives in aircraft bathrooms.
On many overseas flights, airlines have issued rules prohibiting loitering near the lavatory.
"After seeing 14 Middle Eastern men board separately (six together and eight individually) and then act as a group, watching their unusual glances, observing their bizarre bathroom activities, watching them congregate in small groups, knowing that the flight attendants and the pilots were seriously concerned and now knowing that federal air marshals were on board, I was officially terrified," Mrs. Jacobsen said.
"One by one, they went into the two lavatories, each spending about four minutes inside. Right in front of us, two men stood up against the emergency exit door, waiting for the lavatory to become available. The men spoke in Arabic among themselves ... one of the men took his camera into the lavatory. Another took his cell phone. Again, no one approached the men. Not one of the flight attendants asked them to sit down."
In an interview yesterday with The Washington Times, Mrs. Jacobsen said she was surprised to learn afterward that flight attendants are not trained to handle terrorist attacks or the situation that happened on her flight.
"I absolutely empathize with the flight attendants. They are acting with no clear protocol," she said.
Other passengers were distraught and one woman was even crying as the events unfolded.
The plane was met by officials from the FBI, Los Angeles Police Department, Federal Air Marshal Service and Transportation Security Administration. The Syrians, who were traveling on one-way tickets, were taken into custody.
The men, who were not on terrorist watch lists, were released, although their information and fingerprints were added to a database. The group had been hired as musicians to play at a casino, and the booking, hotel accommodations and return flight to New York from Long Beach, Calif., also checked out, Mr. Adams said.
"We don't know if it was a dry run, that's why we are working together with intelligence and investigative agencies to help protect the homeland," he said.
Mrs. Jacobsen, however, is skeptical the 14 passengers were innocent musicians.
"If 19 terrorists can learn to fly airplanes into buildings, couldn't 14 terrorists learn to play instruments?" she asked in the article.
The pilot confirmed Mrs. Jacobsen's experience was "terribly alike" what flight attendants reported on the San Juan flight.
He said there is "widespread knowledge" among crew members these probes are taking place.
A Middle Eastern passenger attempted to videotape out the window as the plane taxied on takeoff and, when told by a flight attendant it was not permitted, "gave her a mean look and stopped taping," said a written report of the San Juan incident by a flight attendant.
The group of six men sat near one another, pretended to be strangers, but after careful observation from flight attendants, it was apparent "all six knew each other," the report said.
"They were very careful when we were in their area to seem separate and pretended to be sleeping, but when we were out of the twilight area, they were watching and communicating," the report said.
The men made several trips to the bathroom and congregated in that area, and were told at least twice by a flight attendant to return to their seats. The suspicious behavior was relayed to airline officials in midflight and additional background checks were conducted.
A second pilot said that, on one of his recent flights, an air marshal forced his way into the lavatory at the front of his plane after a man of Middle Eastern descent locked himself in for a long period.
The marshal found the mirror had been removed and the man was attempting to break through the wall. The cockpit was on the other side.
The second pilot said terrorists are "absolutely" testing security.
"There is a great degree of concern in the airline industry that not only are these dry runs for a terrorist attack, but that there is absolutely no defense capabilities on a vast majority of airlines," the second pilot said.
Dawn Deeks, spokeswoman for the Association of Flight Attendants, said there is no "central clearinghouse" for them to learn of suspicious incidents, and flight crews are not told how issues are resolved.
She said a flight attendant reported that a passenger was using a telephoto lens to take sequential photos of the cockpit door.
The passenger was stopped, and the incident, which happened two months ago, was reported to officials. But when the attendant checked back last week on the outcome, she was told her report had been lost.
Recent incidents at the Minneapolis-St. Paul international airport have also alarmed flight crews. Earlier this month, a passenger from Syria was taken into custody while carrying anti-American materials and a note suggesting he intended to commit a public suicide.
A third pilot reported watching a man of Middle Eastern descent at the same airport using binoculars to get airplane tail numbers and writing the numbers in a notebook to correspond with flight numbers.
"It's a probe. They are probing us," said a second air marshal, who confirmed that Middle Eastern men try to flush out marshals by rushing the cockpit and stopping suddenly.
Posters comment/question:
One of the comments in the 9/11Commission report made mention of inadequate Congressional overesight. Re this, a situation that is plainly factual, has The Congress taken any action to check the stalling of TSS regarding the arming of airline pilots program, actually the REARMING of airline pilots? Given that it really hasn't done much, if anything to correct a serious "Loophole" in what is the LAST LINE OF DEFENSE, for air transport in this country, why the hell hasn't it?
Scouting jetliners for new attacks
By Audrey Hudson
THE WASHINGTON TIMES
Flight crews and air marshals say Middle Eastern men are staking out airports, probing security measures and conducting test runs aboard airplanes for a terrorist attack.
At least two midflight incidents have involved numerous men of Middle Eastern descent behaving in what one pilot called "stereotypical" behavior of an organized attempt to attack a plane.
"No doubt these are dry runs for a terrorist attack," an air marshal said.
Pilots and air marshals who asked to remain anonymous told The Washington Times that surveillance by terrorists is rampant, using different probing methods.
"It's happening, and it's a sad state of affairs," a pilot said.
A June 29 incident aboard Northwest Airlines Flight 327 from Detroit to Los Angeles is similar to a Feb. 15 incident on American Airlines Flight 1732 from San Juan, Puerto Rico, to New York's John F. Kennedy Airport.
The Northwest flight involved 14 Syrian men and the American Airlines flight involved six men of Middle Eastern descent.
"I've never been in a situation where I have felt that afraid," said Annie Jacobsen, a business and finance feature writer for the online magazine Women's Wall Street who was aboard the Northwest flight.
The men were seated throughout the plane pretending to be strangers. Once airborne, they began congregating in groups of two or three, stood nearly the entire flight, and consecutively filed in and out of bathrooms at different intervals, raising concern among passengers and flight attendants, Mrs. Jacobsen said.
One man took a McDonald's bag into the bathroom, then passed it off to another passenger upon returning to his seat. When the pilot announced the plane was cleared for landing and to fasten seat belts, seven men jumped up in unison and went to different bathrooms.
Her account was confirmed by David Adams, spokesman for the U.S. Immigration and Customs Enforcement's Federal Air Marshal Service (FAMS), who said officers were on board and checked the bathrooms several times during the flight, but nothing was found.
"The FAMS never broke their cover, but monitored" the activity, Mr. Adams said. "Given the facts, they had no legal basis to take an enforcement action. But there was enough of a suspicious nature for the FAMS, passengers and crew to take notice."
A January FBI memo says suicide terrorists are plotting to hijack trans-Atlantic planes by smuggling "ready-to-build" bomb kits past airport security, and later assembling the explosives in aircraft bathrooms.
On many overseas flights, airlines have issued rules prohibiting loitering near the lavatory.
"After seeing 14 Middle Eastern men board separately (six together and eight individually) and then act as a group, watching their unusual glances, observing their bizarre bathroom activities, watching them congregate in small groups, knowing that the flight attendants and the pilots were seriously concerned and now knowing that federal air marshals were on board, I was officially terrified," Mrs. Jacobsen said.
"One by one, they went into the two lavatories, each spending about four minutes inside. Right in front of us, two men stood up against the emergency exit door, waiting for the lavatory to become available. The men spoke in Arabic among themselves ... one of the men took his camera into the lavatory. Another took his cell phone. Again, no one approached the men. Not one of the flight attendants asked them to sit down."
In an interview yesterday with The Washington Times, Mrs. Jacobsen said she was surprised to learn afterward that flight attendants are not trained to handle terrorist attacks or the situation that happened on her flight.
"I absolutely empathize with the flight attendants. They are acting with no clear protocol," she said.
Other passengers were distraught and one woman was even crying as the events unfolded.
The plane was met by officials from the FBI, Los Angeles Police Department, Federal Air Marshal Service and Transportation Security Administration. The Syrians, who were traveling on one-way tickets, were taken into custody.
The men, who were not on terrorist watch lists, were released, although their information and fingerprints were added to a database. The group had been hired as musicians to play at a casino, and the booking, hotel accommodations and return flight to New York from Long Beach, Calif., also checked out, Mr. Adams said.
"We don't know if it was a dry run, that's why we are working together with intelligence and investigative agencies to help protect the homeland," he said.
Mrs. Jacobsen, however, is skeptical the 14 passengers were innocent musicians.
"If 19 terrorists can learn to fly airplanes into buildings, couldn't 14 terrorists learn to play instruments?" she asked in the article.
The pilot confirmed Mrs. Jacobsen's experience was "terribly alike" what flight attendants reported on the San Juan flight.
He said there is "widespread knowledge" among crew members these probes are taking place.
A Middle Eastern passenger attempted to videotape out the window as the plane taxied on takeoff and, when told by a flight attendant it was not permitted, "gave her a mean look and stopped taping," said a written report of the San Juan incident by a flight attendant.
The group of six men sat near one another, pretended to be strangers, but after careful observation from flight attendants, it was apparent "all six knew each other," the report said.
"They were very careful when we were in their area to seem separate and pretended to be sleeping, but when we were out of the twilight area, they were watching and communicating," the report said.
The men made several trips to the bathroom and congregated in that area, and were told at least twice by a flight attendant to return to their seats. The suspicious behavior was relayed to airline officials in midflight and additional background checks were conducted.
A second pilot said that, on one of his recent flights, an air marshal forced his way into the lavatory at the front of his plane after a man of Middle Eastern descent locked himself in for a long period.
The marshal found the mirror had been removed and the man was attempting to break through the wall. The cockpit was on the other side.
The second pilot said terrorists are "absolutely" testing security.
"There is a great degree of concern in the airline industry that not only are these dry runs for a terrorist attack, but that there is absolutely no defense capabilities on a vast majority of airlines," the second pilot said.
Dawn Deeks, spokeswoman for the Association of Flight Attendants, said there is no "central clearinghouse" for them to learn of suspicious incidents, and flight crews are not told how issues are resolved.
She said a flight attendant reported that a passenger was using a telephoto lens to take sequential photos of the cockpit door.
The passenger was stopped, and the incident, which happened two months ago, was reported to officials. But when the attendant checked back last week on the outcome, she was told her report had been lost.
Recent incidents at the Minneapolis-St. Paul international airport have also alarmed flight crews. Earlier this month, a passenger from Syria was taken into custody while carrying anti-American materials and a note suggesting he intended to commit a public suicide.
A third pilot reported watching a man of Middle Eastern descent at the same airport using binoculars to get airplane tail numbers and writing the numbers in a notebook to correspond with flight numbers.
"It's a probe. They are probing us," said a second air marshal, who confirmed that Middle Eastern men try to flush out marshals by rushing the cockpit and stopping suddenly.
Posters comment/question:
One of the comments in the 9/11Commission report made mention of inadequate Congressional overesight. Re this, a situation that is plainly factual, has The Congress taken any action to check the stalling of TSS regarding the arming of airline pilots program, actually the REARMING of airline pilots? Given that it really hasn't done much, if anything to correct a serious "Loophole" in what is the LAST LINE OF DEFENSE, for air transport in this country, why the hell hasn't it?
Folks,
It is well past time to start cleaning the barn. Would we have tolerated brown shirted, swastika wearing Nordic types to threaten and disrupt air or rail travel in the late 30's or early 40's? Would we have been deliberately solicitous of them for fear of being accused of 'singling them out'? Would we have allowed them to move about freely in our society without the scrutiny necessary to ensure the security of our homes, communities and nation? Not by a damn sight.
So why is this threat any different. These animals are flaunting our weak, helpless stupidity in our faces. They have become emboldened enough to act out in this way without regard to who knows about it. Are our schools, churches and other gathering places next?
We know these people are among us; we know who they are and what they're about. It's time to begin rounding them up and deporting them; without possibility of re-entry. Those that resist should be shot. Those that are under suspicion of terrorist acts should be detained as enemy combatants. All others should be given a one way ticket back to ther country of origin. WAKE UP AMERICA.......
September 11 was just a prelude. When they strike again, it'll be our fault.
It is well past time to start cleaning the barn. Would we have tolerated brown shirted, swastika wearing Nordic types to threaten and disrupt air or rail travel in the late 30's or early 40's? Would we have been deliberately solicitous of them for fear of being accused of 'singling them out'? Would we have allowed them to move about freely in our society without the scrutiny necessary to ensure the security of our homes, communities and nation? Not by a damn sight.
So why is this threat any different. These animals are flaunting our weak, helpless stupidity in our faces. They have become emboldened enough to act out in this way without regard to who knows about it. Are our schools, churches and other gathering places next?
We know these people are among us; we know who they are and what they're about. It's time to begin rounding them up and deporting them; without possibility of re-entry. Those that resist should be shot. Those that are under suspicion of terrorist acts should be detained as enemy combatants. All others should be given a one way ticket back to ther country of origin. WAKE UP AMERICA.......
September 11 was just a prelude. When they strike again, it'll be our fault.
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FrankDrebin
Moderator
So the constitution is good if it lets you carry your gun in whitebread suburbia, but bad if doesn't allow police to arrest people who haven't committed a crime, but who don't look or talk like you and make you nervous? What exactly is "full traditional dress" anyway? And what's with the stupid analogy between uniformed Nazi's from Europe and non-uniformed people from Syria? We DID interr a bunch of Japanese people who did nothing wrong while letting a bunch of traditionally-clothed "Nordic Types" "move about our society" without the scrutiny that you seem to want for "middle eastern" types. If the people on that plane were up to anything, it was probably to bait people like you into harrassing them so they could sue the airlines.
Fred Hansen
New member
Yeah! It's not that they would try to gain control of the plane and fly it into a building or anything!
:barf:You're a cop aren't you Frank? Now I guess you know why I carry my own gun. I need your protection like a fish needs a bicycle.
As far as I'm concerned the folks on the plane can do/wear whatever they want so long as the PILOTS ARE ARMED! Then if the nice gentlemen want to come through another cockpit door the guy/gal entrusted with flying the plane can blow their #%$@&*^ BRAINS OUT!!!
Problem solved.
FrankDrebin
Moderator
Go ahead and make assumptions based on one side of the story. The air marshalls on the plane didn't feel the need to even TALK to any of the potential "terrorists" on the plane, let alone take any action until the plane was on the ground. Which leads me to believe that the "incident" was blown way out of proportion by people who were paranoid. Did the plane even make an unscheduled landing to take care of the "threat"? Or did it continue ALL the way from Detroit to L.A.? Why? So they wouldn't piss off the arabs with the delay and provoke them into blowing the plane up? Or because the flight crew felt there wasn't a problem?
And now you know why they won't let CCW holders carry on planes. You may have had them all held at gunpoint until the plane could be diverted and caused a shootout between you and the air marshalls. God forbid one of them was an arab (or even a swarthy Italian) and told you to drop your gun in a voice with an accent.
Ok Frank,
I'll forget the personal attack and stipulate that I'm just another forum member making 'stupid analogies'.
I would like to know just what you would do. Plain and simple. Give us the gameplan, Frank. But be quick about it please, cause we got a couple of hundred trained Islamofascists walking around with murder in their hearts scoping out refineries, airline security, bridges, tunnels, malls, schools, and historical sights. Do we let them move about freely? Do we surveil them? Do we wiretap them? Do we bless them and offer them a hanky when they sneeze? Do we leave them completely alone and curse our stupidity and indecision as we pick thru the rubble of the coming attack trying to recover our dead?
Do we try and negotiate with them, invite them to a barbeque or perhaps nominate them for membership in the local Kiwanis? I'm sure that once we got to know them we would realize they're just like you and me (well you. They're probably not stupid like me).
So what's it to be 'Frank'. Better think fast. Remember,we're at war. Don't let us down. The clock is ticking and it's probably attached to a 'dirty bomb' in Anytown or a block of C-4 in the broom closet of a local daycare center. And, if it's not too much to ask, could your solution not tread on ANYONES toes and leave us all holding hands, singing kumbaya. We're all waiting. Please save us.
I'll forget the personal attack and stipulate that I'm just another forum member making 'stupid analogies'.
I would like to know just what you would do. Plain and simple. Give us the gameplan, Frank. But be quick about it please, cause we got a couple of hundred trained Islamofascists walking around with murder in their hearts scoping out refineries, airline security, bridges, tunnels, malls, schools, and historical sights. Do we let them move about freely? Do we surveil them? Do we wiretap them? Do we bless them and offer them a hanky when they sneeze? Do we leave them completely alone and curse our stupidity and indecision as we pick thru the rubble of the coming attack trying to recover our dead?
Do we try and negotiate with them, invite them to a barbeque or perhaps nominate them for membership in the local Kiwanis? I'm sure that once we got to know them we would realize they're just like you and me (well you. They're probably not stupid like me).
So what's it to be 'Frank'. Better think fast. Remember,we're at war. Don't let us down. The clock is ticking and it's probably attached to a 'dirty bomb' in Anytown or a block of C-4 in the broom closet of a local daycare center. And, if it's not too much to ask, could your solution not tread on ANYONES toes and leave us all holding hands, singing kumbaya. We're all waiting. Please save us.
FrankDrebin
Moderator
Your paranoia is a lot more dangerous than some middle eastern guys on an airplane who make a housewife nervous. While you're busy wasting resources on watching people because you think you know what a terrorist looks like (an arab on a plane wearing traditional arabic clothes, for instance) the terrorists who aren't so dumb as to wear "traditional arab dress" while out terrorizing, will be right under your nose. As far as your analogy, there was no personal attack, it was just an objectively stupid analogy. How about we put "Nervous Annie" Jacobson in charge of determining who should have the right to carry guns, since you give her perspective so much credence? Think you'd be carrying for long? You would deprive others of their rights under the constitution based on the perspective of goofy ladies like Jacobson, why not apply the same standard to your own agenda? After all, Americans with guns have killed a lot more people in this country than swarthy men on airplanes. I'm sure Nervous Annie would agree. I have no doubt that it was guys like you who were responsible for confining thousands of Americans in camps because they did nothing more than make people nervous because of the way they looked.
http://www.snopes.com/politics/crime/skyterror.asp
http://www.snopes.com/politics/crime/skyterror.asp
FrankDrebin
Moderator
What would I do? If I could prove someone was violating the law, I'd arrest them. And I'd spend a lot more money on intelligence gathering and a lot less on BS infrastructure and duct tape.
Fred Hansen
New member
Well that's a comfort. Kind of similar to the border agents that didn't stop the original 9/11 hijackers from entering our country under suspicious (and in a couple of cases illegal) circumstances in the first place. Kind of like the security boobs at the airports that didn't ask the original 9/11 hijackers what the deal was when 5 unaccompanied, middle-eastern, non-citizens showed up to board a plane at the last minute, paid cash, wanted only one-way tickets, and had NO CHECKED LUGGAGE. Kind of like the FBI agents that didn't follow up on a tip from passenger liner flight instructors who described having foreign students with almost no interest in really learning to pilot (including take-offs and landings) said passenger liners, but rather that the students had an inordinate interest in only learning how to "steer" the planes. Not to mention how much it is like the INS agents that didn't boot the rats out of our country the minute their phony visas expired! Shall we even bother to compare it to the State Department doinks who issued a new visa to one of the 9/11 hijackers a couple of months after 911?
:barf:
I've always known. If even one passenger, or if even one armed pilot thwarted a hijacking, then even a slack-jawed mouth-breather would be able to figure out that the multi-trillion dollar Transportation Safety Assthority is a fraud. A useless parasitic fraud at that. Why take a chance and have the sheeple realize that they need Big Daddy Gubmint and his henchmen like they need a hole in their heads?
That's a good start, 'Frank'. Nice to see that you have the keen grasp of the obvious that has eluded us goofy and stupid mortals.
Now, would you like to go for more points by fleshing out your proposal with some original thoughts and details, you know, the how, when, who, where and why or are you going to be satisfied wth only looking half clever. You're the only one who can save us, bro. Please give us the magic solution 'cause we're all just too stupid, goofy and nervous to figure it out for ourselves.
Now, would you like to go for more points by fleshing out your proposal with some original thoughts and details, you know, the how, when, who, where and why or are you going to be satisfied wth only looking half clever. You're the only one who can save us, bro. Please give us the magic solution 'cause we're all just too stupid, goofy and nervous to figure it out for ourselves.
FrankDrebin
Moderator
A lot more comforting to me than letting people like Annie call the shots and a lot more comforting that the thought of some of you on planes with guns, ready to take on an arab who has a sharp clarinet.
Sure, ask me a specific question. I don't have the inclination to speak in sweeping generalities, or address Chicken Little hysteria. You know, like "Should we confine all arabs to camps like we did with the "Japs"?"
FrankDrebin
Moderator
Well, why don't you apply your keen grasp and tell me what laws Annie's Arabs broke?
Since cars kill a lot more people than terrorists AND guns, maybe we should build camps to house everyone whose license has been suspended until the suspension is lifted and until they demonstrate an ability to drive safely. And then we can go for the homosexual men and IV drug users and put them all in camps to limit the spread of AIDS.
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