Drawing magazine

[James K]

I got a freebie subscription to G&A Handguns, a magazine I never ordinarily read. There is never much of interest, but one article described reloading of an auto pistol by quickly reaching for the spare mag and reloading when the gun is empty. Not a bad article, but one question.

I don't have the vast combat experience of the gun writers, who engage in dozens of gun fights a day with hundreds of drug dealers, rampaging terrorists, and assorted BG's. But I kind of wonder why anyone, knowing his pistol is running dry, would wait until the gun is empty and locked back before reaching for the spare mag.

Wouldn't it make more sense to pull out the extra mag at some point before the gun runs empty and have it in the off hand, ready to reload if need be?

Thoughts?

Jim

 

[Tamara]

Not having been a Clandestine Black Ops Warrior myself, I would guess that it's because both hands are on the gun, you're not really counting rounds when someone's shooting at you, and your first indication that the mag might be running low is the slide locking back.

 

[KSFreeman]

In olden days when dinosaurs roamed the earf and wore orange and brown, there was a certain skul that I remember that used to receive a lot of cases of beer for such an horrorific infraction of not counting your rounds. The problem is that most of us do not have the intense training of the Selous Scouts that all the people I meet in the gunshop have and have trouble counting rounds when running, jumping, shouting, opening doors, ducking and, maybe, shooting.

However, as the former ramrod of that skul so wisely sez, having an empty gun is part of fighting. Get it reloaded, ochen bistro.

Jim, are you describing a tac reload?

 

[Justin]

My understanding was that once there is a lull where you have enough time to reload, you should reload wether your gun is empty or not.

Not that I'm any sort of expert, because I'm not. But that's just what I've heard.

 

[James K]

Having been around when dinosaurs ruled the earth, I have not kept up with the lingo, so I am not sure whether it is a tactical reload or not.

Anyway, in a big shootout, I think it would be about as important to be sure of the reload than to have both hands on the gun in the prescribed manner. I also note that in some of the "games", reload time is "off the clock". I presume one stands up in the middle of the gunfight and gives the "timeout" signal to keep the BG's from taking unfair advantage.

Jim

 

[444]

As I understand the terminology (only important if you shoot a sport like IDPA ) what you are describing is a slide lock reload. A tactical reload is where you draw a fresh mag, hit the mag release, catch the ejected mag in your weak hand, slide the fresh mag into the gun, retaining the ejected mag. The idea being that you are topping off your gun while having it remain without a mag for a minimum of time. You are also retaining the partial magazine in case it is needed later.
In IDPA you recieve a penelty for leaving loaded ammo on the ground whether it be from a revolver or auto. Thus retaining the magazine. If the mag is empty (slide lock reload) it is permissible to eject the mag on the ground and keep going. In IDPA, reloads are required to be done behind cover. In IPSC you can reload any time you want. Stradegy usually is to reload when running minimizing down time. Reloading is not off the clock in either IDPA or IPSC and is very much a part of the game. In IDPA they will occasionally specify that you must do a slide load or a tactical reload an you are penelized for not doing the appropriate reload for the stage.

Disclaimer: Shooting these sports sometimes requires a degree in law, so I may have misinturpreted something along the way, but this is the way I understand it.

I would also think that in an actual gun fight, like in these "games" you keep shooting until the target is neutralized. If this means you expend the whole mag, so be it. Just like you can't tell the BG "time out" so you can reload off the clock, you can't tell the BG "time out" so that you don't shoot your gun dry.

 

[Tamara]

You'll laugh, but...

...this particular bit o' wisdom has been hammered into my noggin by such silly computer games as Rogue Spear and Ghost Recon: The time to realize you have an empty gun is not when you're nose-to-nose with a bad guy. Whenever there's any kind of lull in the shooting, that's a splendid occasion to stick the current in-use mag in your pocket and replace it with a full one.

(PS: If I lose count of the rounds left in my gun during a pistol match or, worse, playing a silly computer sim where there's a big digital magazine counter on the bottom of the screen, I don't hold out a lotta hope for being able to perform long division when actual hot lead is whizzing past my ears. )

 

[One]

Jim

I forsee a few problems to grabbing a mag before the initial change. One being that you anticipate a change, grab your mag planning on reloading when your gun runs dry, and you take a round. More than likely you will lose your mag and quite possibly your weapon, at which point a reload is moot. Letting it in its mag pouch helps ensure that it will be there when needed. Second would be an attack from your periphery. Should some one charge you from out of your sight(remember tunnel vision is out there) I would feel more comfortable having a free hand to block or pary an attack, versus trying to do so while holding my spare mag.

In training, a dry weapon is a gigantic no-no. We are trained that if put into a shooting situation when in the open, you move to cover, once there perform a tactical reload, as described by the others. Should cover be far and few between, the shooter should be ready to reload upon slide lock. People say that if involved in a shoot, they WILL know how many shots fired. I know officers involved in shoots who thought they fired one or two shots later find out that they had fired eight to ten. When the SHTF and tachycardia kick in, you will be lucky to hear the report of the weapon, or feel the slide cycle.

I in no way profess to be an expert, just offering some of the fine training that I have attended over the years.

Be Safe
Mike

 

[C.R.Sam]

Situational awarenes includes the status of your tools.

Some valid points on either side.

Sam

 

[4V50 Gary]

Load when you want to...

and not when you have to.

You're right Jim. Why wait until the slide is locked back?

 

[Tamara]

4V50Gary,

I think what he's suggesting is that at some point in mid-string-of-fire you should remove your support hand from the gun and pull the spare mag out of your mag pouch while continuing to fire one-handed in order to have the spare mag closer to the pistol when the slide locks back. I'm not real sure I'd be too keen on giving up the accuracy of two-handed fire to shave .25 seconds off my reload. Perhaps if I left my weak hand in the proper grip to ensure better shooting, I wouldn't need the reload.

 

[Eric Larsen]

Or you could find one of those wonderful mags the movie stars and movie BG's use...the ones that apparently never run out of bullets.....Sorry.

I say have one handy at all times and practice panic reloads.....
Hopefully you have found cover in the event of a real situation or you are backing up looking for cover before you need to reload.

Shoot well

 

[Jim V]

Well, when intra-personal exchanges become rather loud and confusing, it is not easy to keep track of the number of rounds fired. Some times it is hard enough to even know if you fired or not. I don't think that I'd have my spare ammo in hand awaiting a chance to reload because I would not want something else to worry about. During a pause in the action, a reload may be called for, and it may be during that pause in the action that your slide is locked back any way.

This I know too, one may be "hell on wheels" shooting against 40-11 paper targets and end up having some one say, "Don't he look natural." over him after going up against Rocco and Knuckles in an alley.

 

[James K]

Interesting replies, all. It is pretty obvious that most of the respondents think only in terms of playing games, worrying about what the rules say. As I noted, I have not been in any gunfights (and hope never to be) but I know one thing about them - there ain't any rules.

Which is why I wonder if gun games really teach survival skills or simply game playing skills. I suspect it is the latter.

FWIW, I think I would not endorse a tactical reload. Assuming I have only one extra loaded magazine, I would rather have the spare mag handy but not use it until needed than to pop out a partially loaded mag in favor of a full one. If I go through the full one, I am in the position of having to reload again with a magazine having an unknown amount of ammo, to fire the same number of shots.

As to what happens if I "take a round", I don't know, also never having been shot. In this case, though, I know people who have been, and in most cases, they pretty well lost interest in the situation, being either dead or in severe pain. I know that in theory one can take multiple hits and continue fighting, but it seems to happen mostly in the movies.

Jim

 

[One]

A tactical reload is done when cover is reached. The reason for this is should you have to break cover, either being charged or flanked, you do so with a fully loaded weapon. The tactical reload is not something you do out in the open in the middle of a gunfight. I have run combat courses that call for shooting to slide lock and performing a emergency reload while kneeling. Being out in the open with a weapon that is dry sucks.

I too have never been shot, but have been shot at. It is true, training takes over. I know two officers who have been shot in the last few years, both taking a round to their strong arm. One drew his weapon with his weak hand, placedit between his legs to get a proper grip, and returned fire weak hand, striking the shooters car multiple times. This officer was not only shot in his arm, but also took a round to the chest, deflected by hisbadge and vest. The second, an academy mate of mine was also shot in his strong arm, and managed to draw and return fire. Train as you fight, fight as you train. These officers did not succumb to pain and "quit". They took action to survive and overcome.

A person that goes into harm's way(yes even those that carry CCW), should prepare themselves not only physically, but mentally also. If an assailant has a knife prepare to be cut, if he has a bat prepare to be hit and if he has a gun prepare to be shot. I'm not saying anticipate it or that it is a definite, but realizing that it may happen helps. A CNS hit cannot be helped, but taking a hit in a non-vital area is no reason to call game over. I will do what needs to be done to get home to my family at night. As a firearms instructor told us at the academy "A gunfighter needs to be Agile, Mobile, and Hostile!"

Be Safe
Mike

 

[Archie]

Jim, I have to throw in with you.

There are few rules in a gunfight.

The primary one relating to reloading is "The best place for ammunition is in your gun." Second unto it, and possibly a corollary is "Do not allow your gun to be empty."
The current concept of the "tactical reload" (wherein dropping any loaded ammo on the ground is something between bad taste and a hangin' offense) is questionable to me. So is the practise of shooting the gun dry (slide-lock) prior to reloading.

One should reload whenever one has fired, and then whenever possible.

One last thought. If one has emptied one's handgun TWICE without solving the problem at hand, one is in really deep trouble.

 

[One]

Archie

A tactical reload is performed by grabbing a new magazine in the off hand, depressing the mag release and catching the partially loaded mag between the middle and ring fingers, inserting the fresh mag, and retaining the partial mag in a pocket should it be needed at a later juncture. If one is dropping a partially loaded mag to the deck, this is not a tactical reload.

Be Safe
Mike

 

[444]

"Which is why I wonder if gun games really teach survival skills or simply game playing skills. I suspect it is the latter. "

This issue, like most issues, is not simply black and white. All the shooting games I have been involved with are games, there is no doubt about that. But at the same time, by participating, you become much better skilled with your weapon and the manual dexterity that it takes to be skilled with your chosen weapon. Maybe as a shooter concerned with self defense you practice drawing from a holster, drawing from concealment, shooting for accuracy against a clock, engaging multiple targets from ranges close to contact distance out to maybe 50 yards, shooting with flash sight pictures, point shooting, shooting around baracaides, shooting from various positions (sitting in a chair, sitting in a car, lying on a simulated roof, shooting prone under obstructions, shooting strong hand, shooting weak hand.........) rapid magazine changes, deciding when the optimum time is to make a magazine change etc. After all, you won't learn these skills unless your practice them. So why is it that if you take these drills and incororate them into a shooting game that it becomes something to be negative about ? What is wrong with trying to become the best you can be with your carry gun ? What is wrong if in so doing you keep score and compare how well you did this week with how well you did last week or how well you did compared to your friends ? If you don't keep score, if you don't time yourself, you have nothing with which to judge the results. Trap shooting isn't bird hunting, but it teaches you some of the skills needed to hunt birds. Silhouette shooting isn't big game hunting, but I know two years ago when I had to take an off hand shot at a mulie, my silhouette shooting played a significant role in my making the shot. As One said, "Train as you fight, fight as you train." There is no way we can realistically simulate combat with our chosen weapon. So, we have to do the best we can. If all you do is stand 7 yards from a target, fire a string, stop and reload from a convienient box of ammo lying on the table, you arn't doing much training for anything but standing 7 yards from a target................. Having a little pressure on you when you shoot is a healthy thing. When you are plinking and you miss a shot, you simply fire another one. But, when you are keeping score, every shot counts. Shooting in front of other people, shooting against the clock, having your score posted, really being concerned with how well you are shooting doesn't provide the raw terror experienced in a true life or death situation, but I am convinced that it is better training than shooting beer cans at the dump. Being able to evaluate your guns reliability, how fast you can pick up your sights, how well your holster functions, how your dress effects your draw and magazine changes under pressure, with no alibis, to me is a valuable tool.
How much of a game it is is kind of up to you. You can choose to participate using your bone stock carry gun with your carry holster and your carry ammo, wearing the clothes your would normally wear on the street. Or you can choose to play the game and shoot a custom race gun. That is up to you. I have shot matches where off duty police officers wore there duty belt complete with PR24 etc. They tried to shoot each senario as tatically sound as they could. They saw it as another training exercise. If the rules allow you to reload standing in the open, that doesn't mean you have to. As long as your don't violate any safety rules you can usually choose how you want to handle the senario (within reason).

 

[Coronach]

For computer FPS games, try Infiltration. No digital round counter. Ammo is magazine based- meaning that if you rip of 7 rounds and switch mags, you'll end up with a magazine that is 7 rounds short in your inventory. This is nice and realistic, unlike Counterstrike.

I have also really annoyed my teammates in Counterstrike by bellowing helpful suggestions over RogerWilco like "Fatal funnel! Clear the friggen door!" and "Reload from cover, dumb@$$!"

Mike

 

[croyance]

Interesting responses. Being in a shooting situation must be a truely stressful situation. Shoot back, keep moving, are there innocent bystanders? So many things to keep track of, while your adrenaline is running and your mental focus very narrow because of genetic wiring. The stress response kills fine coordination and limits critical thinking. Keeping track of round count in that first magazine must be difficult if you are not properly trained/conditioned.
That is an arguement in favor of a tactical reload. Once you reach cover, you really are not sure if you have one round left or nine. Now you could do a press check, or top off quickly and be ready to react. You can still keep the partially empty magazine for your last gasp if it comes to that.
I can see the value of games, if you do them often enough, with enough thinking behind it. The hows and whys of each stage must be understood. The habits you develop playing/training are the ones that will show up in a real shoot out, whether good or bad. The will to fight back is good, and very important, but kind of useless if too many stupid mistakes are made.