Don't overlook your other tools

[Sleuth]

In the thread about using car doors for cover, it was (rightly) pointed out that the best use of a car is to exit the kill zone. But don't fall into "I must solve the problem with my gun!" If deadly force is justified, any deadly force is justified. Hit them with your car, a frying pan, stab them with your pen, use what you have.

Shooters tend to think that all defensive problems must be solved with their gun. Not so! If a fire extinguisher is closer than my gun, they are going to get the contents and then they get to wear the container for a hat! If I have a pen in my hand, I'll stab them with it!

To paraphrase General Patton, 'A good plan executed now is better than the perfect plan executed later".

Even in that TSA planned "sanctuary" of air travel you are surrounded by potential tools to use in your defense. So keep your eyes open and your head in the game - you don't 'have' to use your gun!

 

[FireForged]

What specific problem are you addressing and where is the data that indicates to what degree this problem exists.

 

[Eagle Eye]

What specific problem are you addressing and where is the data that indicates to what degree this problem exists.

The quoted response seems to be condescending, however I know neither the originator nor the responder.

I had no trouble understanding that the implied "problem" is a threat to the poster's life (or that of another), and I doubt that one would have time to collect or interpret data to analyze the extent of the problem if such was perceived. :barf:

Gee whiz guys -- get along!

 

[Maxem0815]

The whole thing made sense to me and rightfully so. I can think of many scenarios where I do not have a weapon on me but I have things available, not to mention that I do not carry 100% of the time I am outside.

Mace

 

[FireForged]

The quoted response seems to be condescending, however I know neither the originator nor the responder.

My response was not intended to be rude. It was kinda direct, I agree.. but that just how I speak most of the time.

The original post sounded like it was prompted by a larger more detailed conversation. I was just curious to the specifics behind the subject matter.

 

[Sleuth]

The problem is one of perception - the old "I have a hammer, so every problem looks like a nail". In this case, it's "I have a gun, so I have to discard the stick in my hand to respond with my gun". Depending on the circumstances, you may live longer by instantly attacking with the stick.

Example: As an LEO I was in a 90 mile high speed pursuit. I had at that time been a firearms instructor for 25 years, a competitive shooter for even longer, 9 years the lead firearms instructor at our academy - in short I was the office "gun guy". I had both my handgun and an 5.56 rifle to hand.
But I never once considered solving this problem with a gun (even though we were in a very remote, unpopulated area). Rather, I did the PIT maneuver, and solved the problem.

The mind truly is the ultimate weapon. I am just encouraging people to use it.

 

[Polynikes]

One of the concepts that has always seemed like a good idea to me (laugh if you will) is throwing random items that I might be carrying before drawing my gun. For instance, getting out of my car with grocery bags, if I'm approached in a threatening manner, rather than drop the bag and draw, I'll sling it at the bad guy's head, then draw, in the hopes that his dodge reflex will slow him down a bit until I can bring lethal force to bear. The same thing could be done with car keys or a wallet, or pretty much any other object in your hand. Don't drop it! Throw it! The bad guy likely won't expect something suddenly flying at his face, giving you a chance to flip the situation and get the upper hand. Thoughts?

 

[Obambulate]

LOL, I get groceries in a bad neighborhood, and I usually exit the store carrying at least one bag or item like a weapon. The 1.5 liter wine bottles are good for this. They can deal with a facefull of glass and merlot while I deploy the CC revolver.

 

[Sleuth]

You are on the right track, although throwing what you have is part of disrupting his concentration (or OODA Loop). I am urging folks to depart entirely from ""the box"", and start their defense with whatever they have at hand before - or while - accessing their handgun.

 

[SRH78]

Here is a scenario that actually happened a while back. I was going to pick my nephew up in a bad part of town. I was unfamiliar with the neighborhood and it was poorly lit and poorly marked so I was driving slowly trying to figure out which was the right house. There was a guy standing in the yard very close to where I expected the correct house to be. Turns out he was the next door neighbor. He came towards my truck carrying a bat saying "this ain't the place homes". He was a prime example of stupid. The truck would have allowed a quick escape but about this time I saw my nephew approaching the other side of the truck so that was not an option. I turned the wheels sharply and had this guy actually tried anything, a quick press on the gas pedal would have proven much more effective than his bat.

 

[marty.mcmeans]

Situational Awareness

I really liked this post! And I guess its nice to know I'm not the only one who sees weapons everywhere I look. I still remember being young and my father drilling into me how you always had to be mindful of your surroundings. One of his many, I guess I could call them lessons, included taking inventory of anything around you that could be used as a weapon if the need arised. Granted, this was long before I held a LTCH or even carried a pocket knife everwhere, but I still find myself doing the same thing today. Anything heavy, sharp, throwable, or just distracting can be a weapon, might as well use what is at your disposal.

 

[Tachi]

Something I thought I'd mention, especially for those of you who smoke; I've seen a flicked cigarette used as both a lead into an attack, and as an initial stalling defense against attack.

Also, if you have a CCW, carry a fixed blade horizontally, hilt forward on your off-hand side. Great for weapon retention. If they grab your gun, don't grab their wrist; grab their elbow with your thumb on the inside of the elbow, you'll have better leverage. Then, with one movement, draw your knife in a reverse grip with your off-hand and pressure cut their bicep in half. Standard CQK weapon retention technique.

 

[Eagle0711]

It would be nice to carry a sap, fixed blade knife or whatever, but in OR it's illegal, even if you hace a CWL. It's OK to shot them.

 

[irish52084]

Can you carry a folding knife in OR?

I carry a 3 1/2" folder that makes for a great tool. It's not ideal for fighting, but it's good for cutting rope, cleaning fish etc... and in a pinch, it's a weapon. Knives are a great tool to carry and in a struggle they can mean the difference between surviving and not.

 

[TheNocturnus]

Tachi Said,
"Something I thought I'd mention, especially for those of you who smoke; I've seen a flicked cigarette used as both a lead into an attack, and as an initial stalling defense against attack.

Also, if you have a CCW, carry a fixed blade horizontally, hilt forward on your off-hand side. Great for weapon retention. If they grab your gun, don't grab their wrist; grab their elbow with your thumb on the inside of the elbow, you'll have better leverage. Then, with one movement, draw your knife in a reverse grip with your off-hand and pressure cut their bicep in half. Standard CQK weapon retention technique."
__________________

Well said man. I have had some S.C.A.R.S. training by a former Navy Seal and that is basically what I would do also. I may strike-grab the radial nerve on that arm instead. Instead of grabbing a knife I would grab my BUG and splatter skull.

 

[serf 'rett]

Mentally prepare. I think it helps to run through scenarios mentally. If you have mentally played out or visualized multiple possibilities, weapons and available options repeatedly, then you just may fast track inside the other person’s OODA Loop. The idea would be you’ve already observed, oriented and have made decisions given a set of circumstances. The only thing left is for you to act.

I think about a report I read about a guy and his being robbed at gun point. He faked a heart attack, doubled over and came up firing; thereby, cutting inside the robber’s OODA loop and saving the State tens of thousands of dollars of prisoner upkeep. I have no doubt the “good guy” of the incident had mentally rehearsed for his “performance.”
The OP reminds me to think, prepare and remain mentally flexible.

 

[irish52084]

There is an old, probably dead now, poker player that used the heart attack trick to get the upper hand on would be robbers. Can't remember his name now.

 

[Tachi]

@Eagle0711:
There are some folders that come with sheaths to be carried open, Blackhawk has one. This might get you around that law. However, I would suggest checking before trying it.

Usually the laws like that just stipulate a length limit to the folder, such as 3 1/2 inches, width of palm, etc; but, then don't have any limit on how the folder is carried.