Don't carry around me.

[Willie Lowman]

I am not directing that title line at any of you (I don't think), but some people I know. Some inlaws in particular...

Now I am a pro gun guy and I am all for CC. My issue is that there are some folks who are really unsafe with a gun and giving them the ability to carry one around with them is an accident waiting to happen.

One of these people I am ranting about can tell you exactly how many rounds has been fired through each gun in his collection. I don't think any of them has reached 100 yet. Needless to say my cylinder bore 590 keeps a tighter group at 10 yards than he does with his USP. Put him in a high stress situation and there will be JHPs hitting everything in the township but his target.

Another was walking in the woods recently and came very close to shooting either her own foot or the dog. She said that at first she thought someone was shooting at her... Yeah, someone was shooting at her, it was herself.





It seems to me that the Ohio CCH needs some stricter requirements than sitting in a class for 10 hours and slowfire shooting at some paper plates that are close enough to spit on.

I am sure that you know people like this. It isn't an issue of self defense, it is carelessness. Add a CCH permit and now it is carelessness on the road, in the store, at the dinner.

--rant off.

 

[Enoy21]

Have you tried approaching them to invite them to shoot with you ? Give them some tips and friendly reminders of the dangers and how to handle their firearms ?

Perhaps some family competition at target shooting will improve accuracy.

 

[NavyLT]

It seems to me that the Ohio CCH needs some stricter requirements than sitting in a class for 10 hours and slowfire shooting at some paper plates that are close enough to spit on.

I am sure that you know people like this. It isn't an issue of self defense, it is carelessness. Add a CCH permit and now it is carelessness on the road, in the store, at the dinner.

I agree with that wholeheartedly. But, I would add to that, that anyone legal to possess a firearm should be allowed to carry that firearm openly without cost or permit anywhere they are allowed to be legally present. To me, that is what the 2nd Amendment is saying.

 

[Microgunner]

I disagree. I think everyone has the right to defend themselves regardless of what you think of them, unless they've forfeited those rights. If this were a big problem I might agree, but I've not heard of a rash of accidental shootings by CCW holders.

 

[Dresden2001]

Willie,

Look at this as an opportunity to improve their skills and your safety. Let's say you have worked with them and the SHTF while you are together. You would be a lot safer with backup, than without it.

The state mandated coursework for CHL is no different than what folks have to take to receive a Hunter Safety Card. Anyone around a newly anointed hunter is a little safer after the nimrod has received a Hunter Safety Certificate, but not much. . . Takes practice and scrupulous commitment to the 4 rules.

Congratulations for having in laws that are pro-gun and willing to carry.

 

[hogdogs]

Willie, While I respect your right to opine, I also feel that I must... 'Tis not for you to invite stricter laws... If they handle the gun unsafely than avoid being near enuff to be shot and try to help them out.

It takes less than 10 hours for a person to get their first driver's license...
Try posting this same thing with "carry" replaced by "drive" on a car forum and let me know how that works out for you...

Stricter rules will not pack common sense into an empty noodle bowl!
Brent

 

[Brian Pfleuger]

Invite them to attend an NRA class with you. Just tell them you're going and want some company. Maybe they'll learn something. Besides that, just avoid being around them if they're that unsafe.

 

[Nick-Mc]

You're upset about that CCW. Well try my home state of NH, no class, no training required, turn in an application and 10 bucks, and if you don't have a criminal record, you'll get it. Makes it so almost anyone can get one, but i've never heard of a problem with carelessness in the NH CCW holders. I have no problem with the lack of requirements, most people are responsible enough to learn how to handle a firearm.

 

[Willie Lowman]

Don't get me started about driving...

Thank you, almost everyone, for your advise.

Microgunner, I never said I had a problem with their right to defend themselves. I have a problem with people that don't know what end of the gun is the dangerous one carrying them around in public. How many times do you have to be muzzle swept by someone that you have told "Take your finger off the trigger" before you think, this guy is dangerous, keep him away from me?

 

[AZAK]

I have a problem with people that don't know what end of the gun is the dangerous one

I believe that the solution to your "concerns" is called education.

Here in Alaska, no permit needed to open carry or concealed carry; no class, no "only 10 hours", no paper plate target to spit on, just the 2nd Amendment. You don't see headline news of Alaskans "accidentally" offing others, dogs, etc...

If you are truly concerned, do something about it. Educate those that you know, several good suggestions on some avenues to do that above.

And if you are really civic minded, keep those that you care about from eating to much junk; that greasy fast food hamburger is more dangerous statistically than those CCL holders. (Look at the leading cause of death in this country.)

 

[NRAhab]

One of these people I am ranting about can tell you exactly how many rounds has been fired through each gun in his collection.

That in and of itself isn't a bad thing. I can tell you exactly how many rounds I've fired through each of my competition/defensive firearms this year, month, week, what caliber, grain, and bullet type they were, if I had any failures to feed/extract or other jams, what caused the jam if any, the last time the gun was cleaned, and how many rounds it has fired since its last cleaning.

Record keeping is a good thing.

 

[Microgunner]

How many times do you have to be muzzle swept by someone that you have told "Take your finger off the trigger" before you think, this guy is dangerous, keep him away from me?

I concur. That sort of behavior irks me to no end and I also tell them so.

 

[calamityjane]

I'm afraid of the rash of people running out to get guns and concealed carry's, but who aren't interested in continued training. Eventually something will happen and the press is going to absolutely run with it. It really is the awesome responsibility your CCW instructor told us it was.

In the current environment, that is really not what we need when we are already fighting to retain the (sometimes meager) 2A rights we are already afforded.

 

[Powdersmoke]

Ok first, I'm very pro gun and very much in favor of the right of law abiding citizens to carry concealed firearms for protection. But it does need to be done responsibly. I know people who I have no interest in being within range of if they're in possession of a firearm. Educating them to the error of their ways isn't going to be possible short of letting them accidently kill someone and end up in jail for it because they don't care and don't think they need it. I do have a problem with someone like that holding a concealed carry permit! Me or a family member or some other innocent person could be the one that catches their poorly directed shots if they ever do attempt to defend themselves with a gun.
Gun ownership and the right to carry a concealed handgun for protection are already something that the non gun owning public isn't 100% comfortable with without giving them real reasons to think that way. The non gun owners outnumber us and they vote!!
I think that some kind of minimum standards for safe gun handling and accurate shooting for concealed carry permit holders are a good thing!
By all means try to educate anyone who's not being safe in the hope that they'll listen. But, there is a limit to how much time I'm going to spend on someone who insists on pointing a gun at me or repeatedly engages in other unsafe behavior with a firearm!

 

[chris in va]

Don't bother. I've posted the same thing and got severely flamed for it. Many people think it's just fine to buy a handgun and strap it on, not having any formal education on how to actually use it properly.

 

[Powdersmoke]

Chris

Yeah it's a hot button issue and I'm sure I'll be verbally excoriated too but I can't help it. With power goes responsibility whether we want to held responsible or not, and we're talking about the power to take a life here!

 

[pax]

This topic is not appropriate for the tactics and training forum. I'm moving it down to law and civil rights where it might be more topical.

pax

 

[AZAK]

Many people think it's just fine to buy a handgun and strap it on, not having any formal education on how to actually use it properly.

Just how often do we hear/read about someone "accidentally" shooting someone else due to lack of training? Let us compare that to how often do we hear/read about that same "group" accidentally shooting themselves?

I would venture to say that that "group" that declines training is a much greater hazard to themselves than the public at large. Look at the threads here (certain NFL person, multiple accounts of "Glock leg", etc...).

And as I stated earlier, the average American's dinner tonight and lack of any consistent exercise is probably far more likely to kill them earlier than a stray bullet from any "untrained" gun owner.

 

[JuanCarlos]

And as I stated earlier, the average American's dinner tonight and lack of any consistent exercise is probably far more likely to kill them earlier than a stray bullet from any "untrained" gun owner.

Exactly. Statistically this is a non-issue. Sure, there are plenty of dudes carrying concealed that, were they ever to actually draw that weapon, are more likely to kill a bystander or themselves than their target. But since the odds that they'll ever draw it are pretty slim (I'd say near zero, but that might be a stretch) it's not a huge deal.

If they hurt somebody, they (or their family) can deal with the liability involved. I'm more than willing to accept the infinitesimal risk of being shot by an inept permitholder as the price for the right to get a permit myself. Any time you create more hoops to jump through, you're just giving the government (whether state, local, whoever) more chances to deny that right for no good reason.

If you're uncomfortable with that risk, you can move to the UK. Heck, as it stands you can move to one of the many May Issue states if it worries you so.


Too often we try and eliminate risks, at the expense of freedom. I'm all for reducing risk, which is why I'm willing to accept the idea of a permit process to begin with (rather than VT-style carry)...I think requiring any paperwork and any training will keep a vast majority of idiots from bothering. After that we hit the point of diminishing returns on the safety/freedom curve.

 

[Powdersmoke]

While I agree that there is definitely a point of diminishing returns on the freedom/safety curve I'm not sure that asking someone to demonstrate the that they can safely handle a gun and hit what they intend to hit is the point. My reservations about that kind of requirements is that the standards could be set unreasonably high as a tool to keep people from getting a permit. That I would have a real problem with.
As for statistical probability being in favor of not getting shot by an incompetent concealed carry permit holder I don't find that all that comforting. No one I know has ever gotten killed by a drunk driver and the the odds are probably very low that I will either but I still don't want to share the road with them! Oh and I'm going to have to decline the invite to move to the UK because someone doesn't like my opinion on this subject too!!