Dont bring a gun to a knife fight.....

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AK103K

New member
Looks like the Tueller drill come to life, 4 armed cops down in about 30 seconds. Seems to have happened in Nicaragua a few years back, so the sound track is in Spanish. Gist of it seems to be domestic. Knife comes out at around 4:00, real action starts around 7:00.

https://youtu.be/7BPXdTAldvM

There was a somewhat heated discussion here awhile back on this very thing, and a number of people seemed to think it was a joke to think that someone with a knife could be a serious threat. Obviously here, the cops werent taking the boy very serious, and/or they really lacked in training, and it looks like it cost some of them their lives because of it. They had numerous opportunities, and a green light to shoot, yet for whatever reason, they didnt. Seems they thought running away was a better idea, and that too, cost a couple of them. I know Id have been shooting a lot sooner.

Quite a few shots (around 9 I think), yet not real effective. He did finally go down. Even after being shot, hes still alive, and seems to have fared better than those he got with the knife. Dont know if he died or not. Perhaps someone who speaks Spanish can fill us in on what went on.

Check out the ambulance at around 13:00, its state of the art. :)
 
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raimius

New member
Speed, surprise, and violence of action can make up for a lot.
Facing opponents are are not mentally prepared for a fight can also be a huge advantage.
 
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James K

Member In Memoriam
Just because you have a gun, don't ever, ever, underestimate other weapons. We "gun people" tend to think that a gun will trump a knife, club or even hands and feet. But at close range, even a person who has a gun and is skilled in its use can be killed by a fast man with a knife. He will come in low and put the knife where it will do the most harm so fast that there will be no opportunity to draw the gun, or even pull the trigger if the gun is in the hand.

And in a surprise attack, possibly from the rear, I am informed (fortunately not by personal experience) that a knife in the kidney will be totally disabling, and the victim will have no time or ability draw a gun or even to think about anything except the intense pain.

Police know all too well that the worst situations are domestics. I know an officer who was almost killed when he responded to a domestic violence call at a backyard grill. The "abused wife" (who had called the police) stabbed him in the back with a barbeque fork as he tried to cuff her "loving husband."

Jim
 
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Deaf Smith

New member
Does not even have to be a knife.

If you are taken unawares and let the other person get close even a good right cross will do the trick.

It all depends on ones reaction speed .vs. the other guys.

Be fast, be skilled, and be aware when confronting unknown situations.

And, as Bill Jordan said, "the fastest draw is the one with the gun already in your hand."

Deaf
 
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AK103K

New member
"the fastest draw is the one with the gun already in your hand."
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Didnt work out to well in this case. They all seemed about brain dead and in denial, even after the first two went down.

Keep in mind too, this wasnt a "surprise" type thing, it was underway for quite awhile prior to the decision to act on the knife boys part.
 
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shep854

New member
This is why good situational awareness is the first line of defense--PLUS, you often see neat and good stuff around you!
 
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stephen426

New member
Looks like very poor training on the part of the police. Surrounding the subject exposed the police to a cross fire situation. Their guns were not trained on him and they were not prepared to shoot. Had their guns even been pointed in the subject's direction in the "low-ready" position, they should have been able to shoot the subject much more quickly. They should not have turned their back on him and run away from him.

One other possibility was they were using regular round nose bullets which limited the effectiveness. Regardless, the guy with the rifle could have ended things very quickly had he been ready.

Yes, knives can be very dangerous in close quarters, but a decent powered gun with effective ammunition in the hands of someone who knows how to use it is highly effective. Lack of training probably cost at least a couple of those cops their lives.
 
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shep854

New member
'Some body should have taught them about the 21' rule.'--Tony Pasley
Even that isn't enough if the target is not alert.:(
 
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Jim243

New member
but a decent powered gun with effective ammunition in the hands of someone who knows how to use it is highly effective
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Statements like this are a bunch of poppy cock, many people have been shot and multiple times and have not gone down. Due to drugs in their blood stream or just their level of Adrenalin. Statements like this will get people killed.

Stay safe.
Jim
 
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kraigwy

New member
I do not believe in the 21 ft. rule.

I do believe the bandit has the advantage, not because he is faster, has a knife, gun, or what ever. Regardless how fast the good guy is, his problem is hesitation .

Good guys are just that, good guys, they hesitate, because they are good guys and are inbred with the idea they don't want to hurt anyone, and the fear of prosecution because of their actions.

I've seen it a lot in my 20 years in LE, not only civilians for cops themselves.

In training for the "21 foot rule" or anything else, there is no treat of hurting anyone or threat of prosecution. There is only reaction.

In real life, there is hesitation, and hesitation kills,

or

Injures. Again way too common among police offices in non-deadly confrontations. Because officers are concerned with PC they delay in cuffing a suspect. As an FTO, if you know you're going to cuff a guy, cuff him NOW. You can tell him he's under arrest after the cuffs are on, or he can figure it out. But to tell him he's under arrest, and explain why before you cuff him is silly and dangerous.

In would behoove on to study Lt. Col. Dave Grossman's series of books on the subject in your training.
 
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James K

Member In Memoriam
I am afraid that in today's world, most cops will hesitate before using deadly force even in situations where it obviously is necessary and when there is no other realistic alternative. And that will mean dead cops.

But in a "lynch mob" mentality with people scraming "kill the cops", and political prosecutors seeking approval of the TV networks, I am afraid that more cops will face prosecution not only over the use of deadly force, but for using any force or even making an arrest at all.

Jim
 
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tedbeau

New member
Wow, I have to say I think the biggest problem is in the training or lack of, that the police received.

1. Early on in video, before the knife guy jumped the fence he has the knife out and charges an officer in the street. The office has not drawn his weapon, even though the knife is plainly visible. It looks like he draws the gun, but then either reholsters and did not draw because he continues to confront the guy while holding his hand on the holstered gun. Perhaps the department policy is to not draw until absolutely ready to fire.

Even after the first office is stabbed and down, they continue to attempt to restrain the guy without using deadly force. I don't think there were any shots fired until after the perp had the second officer on the ground and was stabbing them repeatedly.

The other failure seems to be in the priority for rendering aid to the injured officers. No one attempt to stop the bleeding of the first officer and even after they are placing the walking wounded into a car that first officer is not being attended to.

I hipe the police department has used this incident to re-write procedures and make changes to their rules of engagement if in deed the hesitation was caused by department policy. If it was all just the officers hesitation them I hope they are training their officers better now.
 
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stephen426

New member
Jim243 said:
Statements like this are a bunch of poppy cock, many people have been shot and multiple times and have not gone down. Due to drugs in their blood stream or just their level of Adrenalin. Statements like this will get people killed.
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Whatever Jim... The point I was making is I'd rather go up against someone who is armed with a knife than someone who is armed with a gun, and I'd rather have a gun in my hand than a knife in my hand. I won't under-estimate someone's knife skills and let them get close to me and I sure as heck won't draw my knife instead of my gun. Not sure how my comment will "get someone killed" but not reacting and reacting improperly to a deadly threat certainly got a couple of those cops killed. No where in my comments did a say that a gun could instantly stop someone.
 
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stephen426

New member
James K said:
I am afraid that in today's world, most cops will hesitate before using deadly force even in situations where it obviously is necessary and when there is no other realistic alternative. And that will mean dead cops.

But in a "lynch mob" mentality with people scraming "kill the cops", and political prosecutors seeking approval of the TV networks, I am afraid that more cops will face prosecution not only over the use of deadly force, but for using any force or even making an arrest at all.
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James,

I totally agree with you here. While I am sure there are racist cops and cops that abuse their power, I believe that the vast majority are good men and women who are trying to protect the public. I hope that this does not lead to more police officers getting killed or wounded because they reacted too late. We need to figure out some kind of balance between accountability for their actions and the ability to actually police. The worst case would be for them to just stop doing their jobs and just let everything go to hell!
 
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Jim243

New member
Not sure how my comment will "get someone killed"
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Relying total on a hand gun to stop an attacker is a false sense of security. Propagating the myth that it will stop an attacker, has proven time and time again to be untrue. Read some of the FBI reports of shootings and you will see that often it will take 10 or 12 rounds in the perp to bring them down. Fewer rounds will kill them, but that could be hours later. Now being shot with a rifle will bring someone down, but no one I know of carries a rifle in their holster. (LOL)

Jim
 
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stephen426

New member
Jim243 said:
Relying total on a hand gun to stop an attacker is a false sense of security. Propagating the myth that it will stop an attacker, has proven time and time again to be untrue. Read some of the FBI reports of shootings and you will see that often it will take 10 or 12 rounds in the perp to bring them down. Fewer rounds will kill them, but that could be hours later. Now being shot with a rifle will bring someone down, but no one I know of carries a rifle in their holster. (LOL)
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Never said a hand gun would stop them immediately. What I did say was...

Stephen426 said:
Yes, knives can be very dangerous in close quarters, but a decent powered gun with effective ammunition in the hands of someone who knows how to use it is highly effective. Lack of training probably cost at least a couple of those cops their lives.
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We can go back and forth all day, but I'd rather not. I'd rather take my gun to a gun fight. I sure as hell won't try what those cops did!
 
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