Doesn't make sense

Qtiphky

New member
Just got back from the range, and had an anomaly that I have never seen before. Shooting 165 Nosler Ballistic Tips out of my Browning A bolt II 300 WSM. Had twenty rounds loaded, half were brass and half were nickel. All cases were origianlly shot from this gun and full length sized. The nickel cases were stiff to chamber while the brass was not. The brass shot a four shot group almost touching, virtually dead on (sighted in). The nickel shot a nice group, but 3 inches left! All shots were shot using a gun vise. I would shoot one shot, wait for the barrel to cool and then shoot another shot alternating between brass and nickel.

Please explain.
 

jdillon

New member
Did you trim the cases to recommended case length? May want to check neck wall thickness as well. This could variations in pressure which would impact POI.
 

F. Guffey

New member
I measure before and after, I determine the length of the chamber first to determine the effect the chamber will have on the case when fired. I measure the effect the chamber the had on the case after firing. Is there a difference, nickel or brass? I have no difficulty necking up 280 Remington brass cases to 35 Whelen, when using new nickel 280 Remington cases I have 40% failure.



"300 WSM" ? I would suggest you measure before firing, after firing and again after sizing, I make tools, I own tools, I took a picture of my gages and micrometers 4 months ago, the picture weighed 400 pounds, my most useful tools? Datums and the feeler gage when used with the dial caliper, or a height gage or a depth micrometer.



WSM anything, seems reloaders want the short case to behave in the same manner as other cases, like the 300 Win Mag when compared to the 300 WSM, could be the WSM larger diameter/shorter powder colum prevents that.



Before the WSM there was the 308 W, before the Internet reloaders that measured before and after were thinking "The 308W sure requires a lot of trimming". Not by much but the powder column of the 308W is larger in diameter and shorter than the powder column of the 30/06 powder column.



F. Guffey
 

mehavey

New member
Two different materials in the two case sets. The nickel/plated cases are (a) stiffer/work-harden faster
and the shoulders had more "spring" to them; and (b) they therefore rebound from the effects of the sizer
die after the case sides were squeezed in. (The nickel plating changes the metallurgical properties
of the brass underneath it as discussed by BLUESBEAR near the bottom of this post: )

http://www.thehighroad.org/archive/index.php/t-103436.html

As to POA change, did you compare the internal water volume of the two case sets? If your barrel dynamics have a horizontal/side-lobe to them and the barrel-time of bullet exit is different,....

See here for some of those dynamics, particulaly second/third order which are in the 1000 cycles/sec regime (i.e., one cycle every millisecond).
http://www.varmintal.com/amode.htm
That millisecond is the same order of time as bullet exit times for 24" 30-06 barrel.

The difference in bullet exit times between two cases with the same 168SMK bullet/47gr/VARGET -- but one w/ a case volume of 68.2gr H2O and the other with 67.5gr H2O -- is about 1.2%. Depending upon the actual barrel whip amplitude, that 1.2% "could" translate to a couple of minutes of angle.

Neat theory... but it's as good as I could come up w/ sitting in a church pew. :D
 

brickeyee

New member
The nickle platting process alters the underlying brass slightly.

Nickel cases seem to split faster overall.

They may be harder, or have a different ductility (or both).
 

F. Guffey

New member
"The difference in bullet exit times between two cases with the same 168SMK bullet/47gr/VARGET -- but one w/ a case volume of 68.2gr H2O and the other with 67.5gr H2O -- is about 1.2%. Depending upon the actual barrel whip amplitude, that 1.2% "could" translate to a couple of minutes of angle"

Time is a factor.

F. Guffey
 

jdillon

New member
F. Guffy makes some interesting points. I have a new Rem 700 CDL SF in 300 WSM that has a loose chamber. Fire sized cases are wider than unfired cases that are FLS. Best accuracy is with neck sized cases trimmed to length and neck turned.

300 WSM 3 Shot Group 10-2-11.jpg

The group in the picture was fired a few weeks ago at 100 meters. 155 Berger VLD behind 65 gr. of IMR 4350.
 

dunerjeff

New member
One of my long range guns had a strict preference for a certain load using prefired nickle plated brass.If I would use regular brass,but change nothing else that gun would'nt group worth a c**p.It absolutely had to be nickle plated for that load,and it shot 1.125 groups at 300yrds with it.
 

hooligan1

New member
Well maybe you need more range time..;) Alot of data is obtained through loads that don't hit center.:)
When I shoot for data, I don't care if it's not dead center, I only care how tight the group is... If it's totally off paper,,, then I will regroup, but not until.
Keep shootin dude!;)
 

Qtiphky

New member
I full length size, trim, chamfer and then seat the primer. They were all loaded at the same time and each charge was weighed. This load was developed and was the best, so all of the testing has been done. I am loading this for hunting season coming up next month and was sighting the gun in. I had never loaded it before with nickel cases but had a few and thought that there wouldn't be a difference. I was wrong in that assumption.

As stated, the brass cases were a beautiful group, basically all four shots touching and sighted in. The nickel cases were a group about 2" spread, but 3" left of center. I guess I should forget about the nickel and stick with the brass.
 

Hog Buster

New member
I stopped using plated brass some years ago. I found that in pistol caliber's it didn’t hold up as well as plain brass. I don’t recall any drastic changes in my pistol groups or chambering, but it did split much quicker than the plain.

I’ve never reloaded plated rifle brass for the same reason, so I can’t say if the plating changes POI or group size, but apparently it does. I have heard and read many complaints about plated brass causing problems, hard chambering, POI and group size among them.

I just toss the plated variety and Federal rifle brass, another problem brass, too soft, so I rarely to never encounter problems with brass.
 

amamnn

New member
The release of the bullet by the neck will play a large part in determining at what point in the muzzle whip the bullet exits the barrel. The point at which the bullet exits the barrel will play a large part in determining where the bullet hits the paper.

Any handloader who has much experience will, at some point (even though it is stated over and over and over in every manual and by every tutor some people just don't get it--at least for a while) have this epiphany: the key to accuracy (defined as having all the bullets land in one place, more or less) is uniformity. Uniformity means that all things are all the same. This means that a .012" neck wall does not release the bullet in the same way or time that a .009" neck wall releases the bullet, so we turn to the same neck wall thickness if we want a certain accuracy. Bullets of different styles and weights fly differently; different powders push differently; and on and on.

The observable effects of component variables in a given rifle/shooter combo will have much to do with the excellence of both and the application. For example, changing the primer to a different brand may not have any observable effect in a moose howitzer like a .300 win mag. but it can ruin a BR shooter's day.

I would bet that for the groups to be so different at (100 yards?) in that kind of rifle, there was a definite difference in the pressure felt when sizing the necks of the two kinds of cases. A clue Watson!;)!!!!!

BTW, it seems to me that if all the bullets fired from the brass/brass were in a nice little group and all the bullets fired from the brass/nickle were in a nice group, but just off to one side, it speaks well for the rifle/shooter/lhandoader combination.

OFF ON A TANGENT:
When I was young and in my prime I used to....not feel things like that because I was not thinking about them and I was often in a hurry to load some rounds for--whatever reason. Then I became more mature, attuned to the vagaries of the press and all that and could "feel" even such a small thing as consistency in primer seating with a hand seater. Yahrite. It was soon proved to me that neither my cronies nor I could really "feel" that primer seating like we thought, when another friend had us try it compared to a K&M seater that actually measures such things. Still, since these days every pull of the handle on my press lights up either shoulder I use, I have become even more sensitive to variations of pressure applied when sizing brass than I was in the past. I don't think that anyone, myself included, can operate like a machine and "feel" minute changes in pressure needed to size any brass, but if you keep yourself aware of any gross changes in the seating force needed, you can find errors and variable before they have a chance to bite you on the butt. I've found a few neck turning errors because the force necessary to push a neck past a bushing or an expander button was something I could feel. I am sure a few smaller errors slipped by me as well. Mostly these errors were form being in a hurry,as a lot of errors are.
 
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