Does Size Matter?

lizziedog1

New member
I have mentioned several times here that I used to be an armed guard. It was many years ago. It helped me pay my way through college.

In order to carry a gun, I had to go through a course. We learned about laws pertaining to when shooting someone is justifiable. We not only learned about the crimninal laws, we are also warned about civil laws. Even if the DA decides a shooting is not criminal, there is no immunity against being sued. In fact, we were warned that a lawsuit for wrongful death was almost a given.

At the time I was a guard, most of us carried revolvers. I chose a Ruger Security Six in .357 magnum. Even though magnum rounds were legal, we were advised to chamber only Special rounds. Factory loaded one at that. It could help in a civil trial, a round with "magnum" stamped on it would not. A reloaded round was certain trouble.

I have also heard many people say that the weapon and ammunition chosen for any personal defense could have consequences for the shooter. Not only in criminal court, bit civil court as well. Shooting someone with a field grade shotgun with goose loads looks better then using a tacti-cool weapon loaded with slugs. I have also heard that reloads should never be used in a gun intended for self defense. It could make the shooter look blood-thirsty.

I know, as well as most of you do, that this kind of logic is goofy, to say the least. If a round from a .38 special contacts brain, the person will not be any deader than if the bullet came out of a magnum case. A reloaded round is no more or no less deadly then a factory round. But our justice system and logic don't always embrace each other.

What do you all think of this? Is there any truth to this? Can a reloaded round get you into hot water? Can a box of pheasant loads keep you out of hot water? I would espically like to hear from any members with experience and/or expertise in this area.

Thanks in advance.
 

bob.a

New member
All of what you wrote is similar to what I have read. Massad Ayoob makes all those points in his books. I admit it makes no sense, but bear in mind that we are at the mercy of our legal system, which is adversarial in nature. The parties involved are the footballs that opposing lawyers kick around in their game, and the jury is more influenced by the lawyers' shabby tricks than by the cold facts of the case. And make no mistake, prosecutors are out for your blood. It fertilizes their re-election campaigns.

Lenny Bruce used to say that in the halls of justice, the only justice was in the halls. So they ground him down and killed him. And he only shot off his mouth. With a real shooting it only gets worse.
 

Eagle0711

New member
It probably depends where you live. Here in southenrn Or you'd likely be ok. If you lived in an anti-gun area like M. Bloomberg territory, or Calif. you need to be more careful not to give the anti-gun anything that could be used against you. Use wisdom. Best, Lyle
 

AZAK

New member
This reminds me of when people say something to the effect of,
"I don't carry my nice guns, suppose I ended up shooting someone and they ended up in a police evidence locker."

I carry what I shoot well. I carry what I like to shoot at targets. I carry ammo that is designed to penetrate well; I am mostly concerned with the four legged animals that I hopefully never will actually need to defend against.

The odds are so small that those of us on this forum will be involved in a self-defense shooting that carrying a "sub-standard" sidearm/don't want my nicer ones to get a scratch in a police evidence locker, dictating ammo selection to "sub-standard" rounds/don't want them to be politically incorrect or made by me seems to me to be an actual disservice to ourselves.

I pray that I will never be in a position to find out about the police evidence locker, or what legal or civil consequences my chosen rounds may or may not have. However, if I ever do find myself in this unfortunate position, I will thank the Heavens that me and mine are still here. And if the fact that I carry what I shoot well, practice with, and like the rounds packed therein helped to keep me here with those I love, that is a small price to pay.

Oh, and a really good lawyer (if that is not an oxymoron?) is worth his/her weight in, and costs as much as, Gold... Yet, the best lawyer is the one that you never have to call.

YMMV
 

lizziedog1

New member
Azak

You are right in that the odds of anyone of us being involved in a self-defense shooting scenario is small. But it does happen. I also realize in those situations, saving your life or the life of loved ones is priority one, not the caliber or the gun you use. However, if you are the bread-winner of your family, wouldn't a civil suit ruin that ability. You also mention having a good lawyer. What if the family suing you also has a good lawyer, shouldn't someone try to stack the odds in their favor.

Here is what I picture. A person is home late at night and the front door is being smashed in. The poor fellow grabs his AK 47 and unleashes several rounds into the intruder as he enter the home. You and I and people with any common sense would high-five this homeowner. However, I picture this guy in court facing a wrongful death lawsuit. The plaintiff's attorney bring out the AK and shows it to the jury. That defendant won't look so good.

The same thing happens to another fellow, he uses his 11-87 field gun loaded with high brass 4 shot. Again, the gun is used as evidence against the shooter. I don't think he would look as "evil" to the jurors.

I am just asking, is there any truth to this theory? Any link to any case law would be appreciated. I have tried to Google this stuff without any luck.
 

roy reali

New member
re:lizziedog1

Good thread here. I have also heard that the gun you use in a self defense situation can have legal implications on you. Hoestly, I can't sight any cases. I hope someone else here can.
 

pax

New member
Guys,

A lot of times when this is discussed or argued online, people don't seem to understand where the argument comes from. It's very easy to build up a straw man that you don't even realize is a straw man, and then knock it down as the silliness that it is. But I think when we understand why the advice is actually given, that can make a big difference in how we understand the issues in play.

A foundational point: I don't believe anyone who has done the research actually believes that anyone would be convicted FOR using handloads. There isn't a jurisdiction in America where handloading is illegal and there sure aren't any laws on the books anywhere that I'm aware of where it says that using a handload sends you to jail. So if you want to understand the deal, get that idea out of your mind because it just isn't the source of this advice and it just isn't going to happen.

Sometimes people say something like, "Well, as long as the shooting itself is justified, that's all that matters." And that's absolutely true. But... The cops and prosecutors don't just walk up on a situation and sign off on it. First they have to find out what happened. Investigators investigate. They might be sympathetic, they might be hostile, but in either case their jobs require them to get the facts and then compare those facts against the law of the land. And if any part of the facts are even slightly muddy or ambiguous, they will keep looking until they find more information. Further, the way the system is set up, it often happens that the investigators spend most of their time and most of their energy looking for "inculpatory evidence" (that is, evidence that would tend to prove someone's guilt) than they do looking for "exculpatory evidence" (evidence that would tend to prove innocence). This isn't malicious; it's simply the way the system works. Cops and prosecutors get paid to find criminals and bring them to justice. That's the job. So when you hear someone say, "As long as the shooting itself is justified," that person has just skimmed right past the most important concept of all: the shooting isn't justified until the cops and prosecutors say it's justified.

Of course, if you commit murder and get tried for murder and convicted of murder, that's one thing. But if you reasonably and vigorously defend your life in a somewhat muddled or confusing set of circumstances, and someone dies as a result, that's when you end up in court and that's when all of this comes into play.

As one example of a muddled or confusing circumstance (handloads weren't involved, but ambiguity certainly was), read the defendant's statement at the conclusion of the first Harold Fish trial: here, then poke around that site until you get an understanding of the case. THIS is what a self-defense case looks like in court. Is it pretty? No. There are lots of good, gun-carrying people serious about self defense who (even today!) think Harold Fish was guilty of murder. Why do they think that? Because the man was tried and convicted in a court of law. But there are also lots of people who’ve looked at the facts in the case who think the man should never have been charged at all, let alone convicted—that it was a clear, simple case of fully justified self defense. And yet he has gone through hell trying to clear his name. THIS is what self defense looks like when it gets to court!

Here's another example of what self defense looks like in court: http://www.armedcitizensnetwork.org/images/stories/journal/Network_2010-9.pdf . Read the entire thing: THIS is what self defense looks like in court.

Does it always look like that? Nope. Sometimes things go perfectly and everyone understands that the defender simply did what they had to do and that's the end of it.

But sometimes it does look like that. Sometimes the circumstances are muddy. Sometimes there's a prosecutor up for election and needing to make a name for himself. Sometimes the attacker's family has enough political pull to get a huge furball going and keep it going. Whatever. Sometimes it looks like that.

You don't know in advance what kind of circumstance you might end up in. If you have a nice clear case, it can still go south. If you've got an ambiguous or questionable one, it can go a lot further south a whole lot faster. Either way, the only smart thing to do is to be prepared to deal with either type of situation. Just as you carry a firearm to defend your life in the gravest extreme, it’s worthwhile to arm yourself with knowledge so you can defend your freedom in the worst circumstances.

And that brings us back to handloads. Okay, it's true that a malicious prosecutor can make a big deal out of your "killer" handloads. That's obvious. But it's equally obvious that there are things you can say in response to that: you can say it's about the money, you can say it's convenience, you can say your pistol was tuned to be most accurate with custom ammunition, you can say they were light loads rather than heavy ones. Whatever. But the point is, the prosecutor can bring it up at trial.

Think of the trial as a sort of seesaw: if there's enough weight on one end of the scale, you get convicted. If there's enough weight on the other end, you go free. Then realize that every single thing the prosecutor puts on his end of the scale is something your attorney has to knock back off the scale--and that's before your attorney can add any weight to your own side. So your attorney can spend a whole lot of time and energy swatting away at pesky issues on the prosecution side without ever giving the jury any reason to set you free.

Sometimes attorneys have bad days, and miss knocking one of those weights off the scale. Sometimes they don't realize it's there. Sometimes they see it, but they don't know how "heavy" the thing will be when the jury looks at it. Whatever it is, when it gets into the trial, it also goes into the jury room. And no matter how heavy the evidence on your own side is, the more stuff there is piled on the other end of the scale, the easier it is for the jury to say, "Well, we can't quite tell what the facts are, but we can see what kind of person the defendant is! Look at this, this, this, and that--he's not a good person, let's convict him based on our gut feelings." And nobody in the entire system can second guess a jury. They debate in private and make their decisions based on everything they've been shown.

All of that adds up to, it is absolutely to your advantage to keep unnecessary stuff out of the jury room. Every single little issue that makes you look worse to the jury can absolutely affect the final outcome. So it might just be in your best interest to cut off that line of attack by using factory loads, or even by using loads that the police themselves use. That makes knocking that weight off the scale a simple, two-sentence move that requires no effort from your lawyer and no work for the jury to understand. It’s a slam dunk.

Personally, I love shooting reloads because I’m a cheapskate. It’s all I shoot in practice and if I had to shoot only factory ammunition I sure couldn’t shoot as much as I do. But I won’t carry handloads for defense, for this reason: I want my attorney to have every possible advantage at trial.

One of the advantages that factory loads give the attorney at trial is this: the opportunity to introduce physical, forensic evidence that can prove the distance between me and the attacker if necessary. When you use a factory load, you’ve got the opportunity to call up the factory and ask for an exemplar of the same product run as the one you used. Your people can test it, note the gun powder residue patterns, the ballistic factors, all of that. It can be introduced into court and it’s unimpeachable.

But when you use handloads, that evidence simply won’t be available to you. Even if you keep absolutely perfect and pristine records (you should!), it’s extremely unlikely that the judge will allow you to manufacture evidence for your own trial. Your handloads won't be admitted at trial because you have manufactured or created the evidence yourself.

What about the rounds left in the gun? Couldn’t they test those? Those are unambiguously part of the crime scene and obviously they are what you used. So couldn't they use those for ballistic testing? Sure, they could—but they won’t. Firing the rounds to test how they behave destroys the rounds. That would be “destruction of evidence” and it’s every bit as unlikely as them allowing you to manufacture evidence to clear yourself. Either which way, if you need that ballistic or residue evidence, but it isn’t available, that’s one less thing you can give the jury to help them set you free.

Anyway, that’s the basis of the "no reloads" advice. To me it seems pretty compelling, but of course it’s your choice. Personally, I want to be readily prepared to deal with the worst self defense situation, and not just the easy ones.

pax

PS-- I'm not an attorney and this is simply my researched, layman's understanding of how it works. I do have a certificate that says I'm qualified to teach Ayoob's Judicious Use of Deadly Force material, which is where a lot of this information comes from. Do your own research!
 

lizziedog1

New member
Pax

Thanks for the great reply. I even read your posted link. I stilll wonder, it the shooter had used an EBR, would the jury still have been undecided?
 

pax

New member
lizziedog,

Forgive the brief reply -- I'm out of time for the day -- but see this link for a perspective on that: http://findarticles.com/p/articles/mi_m0BTT/is_168_28/ai_112685749/

Yes, the gun you use absolutely can influence the jury.

Oh, one more link, this one from our own Glenn Meyer: http://www.astcweb.org/public/publi...es-and-the-Fears-of-the-Legally-Armed-Citizen

The second one speaks more exactly to what you're asking, while the first one gives you a better idea of how the issues look in a real event.

pax
 

pax

New member
Just remembered a quote from the ACLDN Journal account of Larry Hickey that speaks to this, too:

ACLDN Journal said:
Hayes cites an example of a red herring the prosecutor introduced into the first trial that his advice to the defense helped them avoid in the second. “In the first trial, Nicolini was all concerned about the gun that Larry used. It was a standard Glock 19 loaded with a combination of Silvertip ammunition and some other miscellaneous ammo that was at the bottom of the mag. He was trying to paint the picture of this gun being inherently dangerous, reckless, unsafe, saying ‘It doesn’t have a safety on it, does it?’ I thought it was kind of a weird that he was attacking the gun as much as he was, so I just simply answered the questions as honestly as I could and didn’t give him any ammunition to work with.”

Hayes continues, “In the second trial, I made it clear to the defense team that you need to establish ahead of time what guns the local police use because they all use .40 caliber Glocks which are generally more powerful than 9mm. So in the second trial, we established through a detective’s testimony that their gun was a .40 caliber Glock and guess what? Nicolini knew what we had done and he never made the gun an issue in the second trial.”

pax
 

Rifleman1776

New member
This entire forum seems way over-obsessed with self-defense.
Yes, the advice given was on point.
I strongly disagree with Bill. Never lie in court. If you are tripped up it could mean you go behind bars while the defendant walks.
 

kraigwy

New member
I've spent a good deal of time in court, (on the LE side as a Uniform CSI and in Alaska courts am considered an expert witness).

I don't believe (based on my experience) that the criminal court is the problem, its the civil court where the bandit is now an alter boy or what ever.

First, most prosecutors are lazy and over worked, and have limited budgets. You only have to read the papers to realize they will do anything to keep from having to go to court. Yes there are exceptions, they are rare, thats why they make the news. Cases thrown out are not newsworthy, you have to read the newspaper's court log to find them, then maybe a bit of research.

Civil cases are different. You are dealing with lawyers who get paid by the hour. The complainant or respondent or both are paying the cost, not the limited tax dollars of the prosecutor's office.

What you will find is these attorneys will do anything to muddy the waters to help their case. Example are Magnums, Hollow Points (dum dum bullets) soft point hunting bullets, (used to destroy big game) Full Metal Jacket (remember the movie that made them famous) hand loads, target loads (accurate so they are sure to kill). Police ammo, (you're not a cop), Cop Killer ammo, etc etc.

Same with the gun, huge revolvers, magnums, semi auto (assault pistols), snub nose revolvers (Saturday Night specials).

I can go on but you get the point, its about what can muddy the water and confuse the jury.

So within reason, it doesn't matter what you use, somebody is going to muddy the water.

Now lets look at what really matters, SELF DEFENSE, that is the primary goal after all. We don't want to get to the point where we are too afraid to defend our selves or family members. We don't want to hesitate.

Shooting is 95% mental, think about your range sessions, if your mind is on something else, you scores will fall, if you concentrate, they will be up.

What ever bothers you will affect your shooting. Range work is one thing, in reality poor scores because you are worried about your ammo or gun, don't really hurt anything.

Where am I going? Think about it, what is your goal in SD? It's self defense of course, so in choosing your gun and ammo for self defense, choose what makes you feel comfortable, be it magnums, hollow points, super duper factory self defense ammo, reloads or what ever. If you aren't worried about your ammo and/or gun, then you have a better chance of concentrating on the task at hand, saving the life of you and your family.

I think the best thing you can do right now is not worry about the ammo/gun combo (again within reason) and join with other interested in shooting and self defense, and petition your state to do as Wyoming and other states have done, to get a law passed where as if you are involved in a legit shooting, and the coroners inquest or other court rules the shooting justified, you can't be sued civilly.

I will add, that the only concern I've read, regarding reloads is pin pointing distance. I wont go into that here as its in depth and moves to an unrelated topic, but if that is really a concern for you consult an Traffic Accident Re constructionist, those suckers can pin point where a bug was before it hit the windshield.

But again, if reloads cause doubt, don't use them, you don't want doubt clouding you mind if the life of you family is at stake.
 

ClayInTx

New member
About civil liability, your state might vary.


As in Texas Concealed Handgun Laws:

Civil Practice and Remedies Code

CPRC Ch. 83. Use of deadly force in defense of person.

CPRC 83.001. Civil Immunity. A defendant who uses force or deadly force that is justified under Chapter 9, Penal code, is immune from civil liability for personal injury or death that results from the defendant’s use of force or deadly force, as applicable.

* * *

I’m certain that even with this they’ll still try to get you with something. Also note title says in defense of person, not property, although the Penal Code does justify deadly force to protect property and 83.001 says “as justified under Chapter 9”. (emphasis mine)

That’s another football for the lawyers to kick around.
 
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