Does a chashless society promote crime?

[John/az2]

I was thinking the other day about how dependent we have become (generally) on credit cards, and debit cards, and how there is still a subtle push to eliminate cash altogether.

As a child I was able to make a clear connection between my labor and the money I recieved for that labor (because I was paid immediately upon its completion). I was also able to connect the concept of exchanging that money (which represented my labor) for a desired object.

My question is, without the physical interaction of the exchange of one item for another is there a disconnect developed that would eventually transform into a stronger "get something for nothing" mentality?

I personally feel that there is a great psycological and moral value in the physical exchange of labor for money and money for product. And I believe that disconnecting this physical exchange will bring about an increase of irresposibile behaviours.

Of course, I could be wrong. So enlighten me no matter which way you think about this.



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John/az
"When freedom is at stake, your silence is not golden, it's yellow..." RKBA!
www.cphv.com

 

[Herodotus]

I seems to me that the concept is the same. No one is willing to give you money except your close relations, and even that wears thin as you get older.

[This message has been edited by Herodotus (edited July 09, 2000).]

 

[Jack 99]

It goes beyond just being "cashless" to being an instant-gratification society. Like ill-mannered children in a candy store, a certain segment of our society will attempt to grab items and seize them by force without considering whether or not they actually belong to them or not.

 

[Oatka]

I think that if "they" are pushing for a cashless society, they are doomed to failure.
Cash is untraceable, and in some cases, non-taxable. Human nature will outlast/outfox them.

I think the push, such as it is, is more the bank's desire to lower their overhead by automating transactions as much as possible.

At age 66 I have yet to have a debit or ATM card -- not out of suspicion of new-fangled ideas, but just that I have always budgeted our lives and carried small amounts of cash for day-to-day expenses.

My youngest, on the other hand, will write a check for a pack of cigarettes.

 

[John/az2]

<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Herodotus:
I seems to me that the concept is the same. No one is willing to give you money except your close relations, and even that wears thin as you get older.[/quote]

I'm not sure what this has to do with the question I posed.

Jack,

I know already that we have an "instant gratification" society. Our personal debt as Americans is astronomical, and its major contributor is gotta-have-it-now mentality.

I asked <BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><HR>without the physical interaction of the exchange of one item for another is there a disconnect developed that would eventually transform into a stronger "get something for nothing" mentality?[/quote]

Oatka,

They've redesigned our paper currancy, and I have been told that that little strip that runs from bottom to top that is embedded into the paper has a metal detector quality to it. Thusly if you are carrying over a certain amount of cash on you and walk through a detector, you will set it off, which in turn triggers a more person approach to the search.

Even before this (should it be true) we are discouraged from carrying large amounts of cash, because it is subject to confiscation because if we have THAT much cash on us we MUST be pushing drugs. Even if not arrested we can kiss that hard-earned money good-bye. Guilty until proven innocent.

Again, I ask I refer you to the original question.

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John/az
"When freedom is at stake, your silence is not golden, it's yellow..." RKBA!
www.cphv.com


[This message has been edited by John/az2 (edited July 09, 2000).]

 

[dog3]

My personal debt is nill.

I only deal in cash. Period.

I pay my taxes with a Postal Money Order,
To cesar that which is cesars.

I pay my bills in cash or money orders,
I pay my mortgage to the fellow who
financed the property to me in cash.

I get paid via check, I take it to the bank
and cash it.

cash, there really is no substitute.

 

[dog3]

-------------------------------------------
Even before this (should it be true) we are
discouraged from carrying large amounts of
cash, because it is subject to confiscation
because if we have THAT much cash on us
we MUST be pushing drugs. Even if not
arrested we can kiss that hard-earned money
good-bye. Guilty until proven innocent.
--------------------------------------------

How much of this is true and how much is
urban legend.

I know that there was some 10K law, wherein
cash transactions equaling 10K or more had to be reported to the treasury. I remember there
was a big stink about it and I don't know if anything was resolved. I thought the only folks who caved on this issue were the bank. (Oh, big suprise!)

I have heard this has been lowered to 5K, but no one has shown me the law.


I also heard years ago that a cattleman who was on his way to an auction was stopped and searched for some reason and his cash was confiscated and never returned, but while I certainly can belive this, I don't know if the story was true or was urban legend.

I can certainly belive that large amounts of cash may be seized unlawfully (4th and 5th) at airports and not returned - - because the folks it was seized from don't want to answer questions. And I say, ummm, so?

So what is the truth here?

 

[Bam Bam]

The 10K law is true. I have read stories of folks travelling with large amounts of cash to buy cars, horses, etc, and had the money seized for no reason except it was a lot of money.

Does less cash=more survellience?

 

[glock glockler]

From what Ive read, the reason why the +10k law was enacted was due to an effort to keep tabs on Mafia bootleggers who dealt with such large amounts of cash, as 10k was alot of money in the 20s and 30s.

I believe that "they" want to push the cashless route is because the electronic transactions that take place with cards can be recorded. Big Brother wants to know what you are spending your money on. Cash is a problem because it is untracable. The underground economy is always an option when people face oppressive taxation and they know it.

A side note: Is anyone familiar with the "instant passes" that are being pushed at public bridges? In NYC, most of the toll areas are reserved for those with the electronic passes with 1 or 2 for people with cash. They're pushing it alright.

 

[G50AE]

Transactions over 10K must be reported to the IRS.

The metal detector thingie is an urban legend, the strip is an anti-counterfitting device, just like the water mark.

 

[John/az2]

I wasn't sure about the metal detector part, but I knew the strip was there to counter counterfeiting

Another thing about a cashless society: say the IRS does not agree with the amount that you had on your final line, or better yet, you decide to "opt out" of the income tax system altogether. Impossible to do without cash, for with the press of a button, suddenly your banking assets are frozen and your credit cards go limp (I know it happens now anyway, but at least there is still cash to fall back on).

It's not about the banks saving money, or about tracing transactions for "law enforcement"; its about controlling the population.

I believe that law abiding citizens when pushed into a corner, will do one of two things. They will give up, or they will fight back, violently.

Sounds like some guys I have learned about that lived around 1776...

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John/az
"When freedom is at stake, your silence is not golden, it's yellow..." RKBA!
www.cphv.com

[This message has been edited by John/az2 (edited July 10, 2000).]

 

[USP45]

Here is another way we are being forced into a cashless society.

A very close friend has, over the course of his life, simply saved all his cash. Most of it he put into a bank, but a substantial portion he simply kept, "in his mattres". It ended up being 10's of thousands of dollars.

Well, when the time came to purchase a house, the morgage company would not accept the fact that he had this much cash on hand, and not in the bank. He had to go through h#ll to prove that it wasn't crime related. He was told that in the future, it is "legally unwise to keep this kind of sums of cash around." (whatever this means)

Stunning.



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~USP

"[Even if there would be] few tears shed if and when the Second Amendment is held to guarantee nothing more than the state National Guard, this would simply show that the Founders were right when they feared that some future generation might wish to abandon liberties that they considered essential, and so sought to protect those liberties in a Bill of Rights. We may tolerate the abridgement of property rights and the elimination of a right to bear arms; but we should not pretend that these are not reductions of rights." -- Justice Scalia 1998

 

[Keiller TN]

The government should love a cashless society, since they can monitor all transactions. Criminals would have a harder time stealing money, since there would be none. "And that no man might buy or sell, save he that had the mark, or the name of the beast, or the number of his name." (Revelation 13:17) I think the one world government will be cashless.

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Alexander Solzhenitzyn:
"Freedom is given to the human conditionally, in the assumption of his constant religious responsibility."

 

[Ivanhoe]

When the gov't attempts to go cashless, I expect the free market to do its thing. First, transition to a barter-based black market. Then after the black market stabilizes, an alternative currency will appear (perhaps based on precious metals, or maybe RAM chips?).

At some point the hassles of staying legal will exceed the threat, at which point Adam's Smith's "invisible hand" will come into action.

 

[duck hunt]

This is only mildly related, but it allows me to bandy about one of my favorite case studies from my college psych classes:

A group of researchers wanted to see if chimps could learn how to operate in a "token" society -- to use money, as it were. Instead of giving the chimps a peanut or a banana every time they performed a given task, they gave them a token. These tokens could be inserted in a "Chimp-O-Mat" on the other side of the cage for peanuts and bananas and whatever else it is that rocks a chimp's boat.

Well, not only were the chimps able to grasp the token concept, but they started saving up tokens before going to the Chimp-O-Mat, so that they could get more peanuts and bananas at a time....and...here comes the clincher....

...the bigger chimps quit performing the tasks altogether, preferring instead to hang around the Chimp-O-Mat and mug the smaller Chimps for their tokens.

True story! Chimp crime! I love that study.

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*quack*

 

[ellsworthtoohey]

Most prisons in the US are cashless societies. However, that doesn't mean that they are moneyless societies.