Do you need to carry an actual firearm ?

[EastSideRich]

I’ve had a couple of conversations recently with some relatives and wife about CCW and my intention to get a permit in the near future. I guess the consensus is “you should not carry a gun, because blah, blah, blah (insert some B.S. reason that just boils down to: “I just don’t like the idea of it”)”.

As a result of these conversations I came up with this thought – This is going to be somewhat hypothetical and lengthy, so bear with me.

Imagine a new taser is on the market. It has the following features:
1. Small – about the size & weight of a typical sub-compact
2. Can fire multiple “darts”, like a semi-auto, say 10 separate shots so one could engage multiple targets.
3. Can hit the target(s) (with electricity) multiple times once they’re stuck. I believe civilian tasers can only zap once, while the LE model can zap repeatedly with the same darts.
4. Accurate to 20+ yards and penetration not an issue (can go through leather, etc).

Considering all the “Which caliber is best for SD” and “This caliber is inferior or inadequate” threads you’ve seen, from what I’ve seen, a taser has at least as good, if not better “knock down power” and therefore fight stopping capability than typical handgun rounds. When you see someone get tased, they generally drop like someone flipped a switch in their spine– even big scary dudes.
It would virtually eliminate the legal issues which would arise from a shooting.
It would eliminate innocent bystanders getting shot.

The only con I can think of is you might have a lot more people getting tased. People may be quick to pull it out in a situation where they shouldn’t, due to it not being lethal. It would have to be a very serious crime to use it in a non SD situation.

If something like this were available, would you carry it instead of a firearm?
Would you maybe carry this, plus a BUG?
If not, why?

Just curious to see how other people here will respond.

As for me, I think I would carry the new improved taser, maybe a small BUG if I was going somewhere I felt uncomfortable enough.
Don’t get me wrong, I am by no means an anti-2A guy; I love guns, and would still like to have safes full – I just think this would be a viable, and maybe sensible option for CCW.

 

[Redneckrepairs]

Feel free to think so if you choose . However note that LE has not given up their sidearms in favor of tazer only , nor do they typically reach for a tazer when under fire . Ever wonder why ?? For myself ill leave the tazer type stuff for folks who need to Detain a person and carry a pistol to Defend myself .

But Hey!! best of luck with that experiment should you choose to try it .

 

[fivepaknh]

I've heard of some cases where the BG pulls the barbs out. Now you have a really pissed off BG. I've never heard of a BG pulling the bullets out.The fact is they don't make Tazers that fire multiple shots. That leaves you up the creek if you miss or have multiple targets. I'll stick with my Glock 29 that can possibly engage 11 BG's without a reload.

 

[The Tourist]

Many of the questions you have asked are some that I mull over quite often.

In other words, are my actions moral, am I being too idealistic, am I being too blood-thirsty, is CCW simply a reasonable answer for a good guy's concerns, will I be able to forgive myself if someone (even a felon) dies, how will people in my community feel about me...

But a man could go crazy (in my case 'crazier') with the "what ifs" of life and trying to foretell all of the possible outcomes.

You make the best decisions you can. Even Davy Crockette said, "Be sure you're right and then go ahead." What else can a reasonable man do?

Sometimes I carry a knife for defense. I often wonder if I'm fooling myself. The knives I carry are designed by Mick Strider and Ernest Emerson, cutlers who provide edged weapons to the Armed Forces.

In the end, I don't think it's the weapon or the steel. I believe that moral and responsible actions begin with the man himself. The implement he chooses has almost no bearing on the person he is.

 

[EastSideRich]

I realize they don't make tasers that fire multiple shots. That why it was posed as a hypothetical: What if they did, as well as a couple of other flaws that would be fixed.
Also note I asked would you carry a BUG.

I was simply asking for an argument against this type of carry weapon, not cops don't ....... so .......
Cops do a lot of stuff I dont have to do, and get into a lot of situations that I dont. And just for the record, cops use tasers a hell of a lot more than their guns, it must be pretty effective in making one stop whatever it is they are doing.

I wasn't hoping to get snippy responses, but kind of expect them.
I was hoping to hear some intelligent arguements against this type of carry weapon.

 

[The Tourist]

I wasn't hoping to get snippy responses

I hope you don't, a forum is a place for ideas.

If the technology or the moral implications of firearms in crime bother you, then you will never feel satisfied with yourself.

In fact, I would counsel you to stop mimicking the machismo you hear.

If it's simply an issue that the technology does not meet your expectations, then contact the manufacturer and ask about options. As of right now, you can buy new cassettes--although I don't know how quickly they can be utilized as a 'reload.'

Far, far too late into my life did I learn to say, "I dont' know, and I don't care, and I'm none to fond of you..."

And I've said it over and over. All you have to say is "Tourist, I disagree."

I hope you find the taser that meets your requirments, and I hope an honest discussion brings you peace of mind and security.

 

[fivepaknh]

I wasn't hoping to get snippy responses, but kind of expect them.

I wasn't getting snippy.

There's also the psychological effect of having a real gun. I BG may see a Tazer and know that in the end he'll still be alive. He may then take a chance he wouldn't if he saw you had a gun. With a gun pointed at him he knows a dumb move may get him killed. Chances are you may never have to fire the gun.

 

[mechdriver]

In NC my CCW is for a handgun only. Wouldn't cover a taser as it doesn't cover a knife.
Also, as someone who has made a living repairing and servicing electronic equipment, I would not feel comfortable relying on anything with batteries for a self-defense situation. I hope I never have to use a weapon, of any kind, in self-defense, but if I do, I don't want any possibility of my assailant getting back up.

 

[EastSideRich]

Tourist: First off I wasnt refering to you.
second: I'm not sure what machismo I am mimicking, or what you mean by that.
Not looking for security in anyones answers, I will make my own decision, regardless of what others think.
I'm not going crazy wondering "what should I do?"
And I'm sorry if by asking a question like this makes you feel the need to let me know you are not too fond of me, if thats what you meant.

I'm not trying to push any ones buttons. I was just hoping to hear some thoughts on this, and I'll re-pose the question:

If you had the option of carrying a "gun" that would very effectively incapacitate without actually putting holes in someone, would you use it?
If not why?
That's all


One more clarification - I guess my reasoning would not be so much due the moral implications of shooting someone. If I am defending myself or family, etc. I would loose no sleep ending a mans life if it was necessary. It's more about the legal problems that may come of it.
And again I'm not trying to convince anyone this is how they need to feel - just curious as to what others would do.

 

[The Tourist]

I would not feel comfortable relying on anything with batteries

Like anything else, the technology will improve.

For example, when stainless steel first was used in firearms it was always criticized. They wrote that it was "soft" steel and hard to mill. They said it sparkled in the dark, exposing a law enforcement officer. Yada, yada, yada...

Most guns are now stainless, or have stainless parts. The firearms manufacturers found milling techniques and alloys that work properly. We all rely on the corrosion resistance of stainless. Heck, even some of the best and most accurate varmint and sniper rifles use stainless barrels; the Shilen on my AR is stainless.

There will come a time when your children will say, "I only buy electronic plasma rifles. Heck, mechanical rifles have parts that work-harden and snap..."

 

[RockyMtnTactical]

Certain members of my wifes family were particularly disturbed that I carry a firearm on a regular basis.

Frankly, I don't care what they think. They are good people and have good intentions, but many of them are ignorant when it comes to firearms and the good that they can be.

As for tasers, what if you have multiple assailants?

I am proficient with my firearms. I understand the laws and know what situations I might need to use these weapons. I am not a menace to society, I am not a superhero looking for a fight. I am a family man who understands his role as the protector of his wife and children.

I have been robbed at gunpoint, and I hated the helpless feeling that I had in that situation. The last thing I want is for drugged up weirdos being the only ones with the firearms. Rational, law abiding citizens should be able to have guns if the criminals do.

I don't intend to use a firearm for any other reason other than to defend the life of me, my loved ones, and other innocent parties.

 

[The Tourist]

Frankly, I don't care what they think. They are good people and have good intentions

This is the crux of the debate.

I also believe that there are many good intentioned people out there who sincerely are hoplophobes. In reality, education is the correct answer. They probably don't see your research, the hours you spend on the target range, the care you put into buying a CCW holster or the moral decisions you make.

But "I don't care" isn't really what you mean or feel. A man like yourself that operated from this standard does in fact care about people and free ideals. You have just made an enlighted decision, and you won't be dissuaded.

Hey, people don't see me check the air pressure on my motorcycle tires, or witness my tune-ups. It's a problem.

Right now Trace Atkins has a song saying, "I don't care how other people think." It's catchy, it makes me laugh, I have a spring in my step when I hear it.

But he also addresses wrong doing. He mentions gossip and improper class distinction. I think we all agree on those points.

I also don't think good guys don't hurt people's feelings for fun.

 

[Alleykat]

Would you have us carry virtual firearms instead of actual firearms?

 

[Redneckrepairs]

In all honesty my above response may be a bit snarky , not snippy lol . However it goes to illustrate that to me there is no moral quandary about self defense . What is moral is that i go home to my bride , and live to enjoy my grandkids . I will do this by whatever means necessary every time without fail .

The fate of a critter that doesnt have the morality to work for a living, or talk like a rational human instead of attempting to use physical force is of only incidental concern to me . Years of working LE convinced me that nice guys who fight fair and try not to hurt someone " too bad " get to see either the emergency room or the morgue.

To sum up a short answer for you :

Whatever it takes for me and mine to go home every night without fail is my only moral choice. My family depends on me and no immoral person will take me from them .

Edited to add :

You also have to realize that the tazer is more effective the further the darts spread when they impact, a close set of hits can and has been overcome by many including myself . Also heavy or loose clothing may interfere with tazer performance or render it ineffective .

 

[rwilson452]

Everything aside, If I could "phaser on stun" instead of a firearm I would. I don't expect anything of the sort in my lifetime. The argument becomes mute. In todays world the best chance of getting a bad guy to stop is with a firearm. The instances of putting two 45s in the COM and having the BG continue with their bad deeds are few much fewer that that of using a taser.

 

[Redneckrepairs]

Double tap , and deleted this one .. browser timed out and reposted on refresh .

 

[RockyMtnTactical]

In reality, education is the correct answer.

I totally agree, and I have in fact changed the mindset (or rather, helped persuade and educate) certain individuals in my wife's family. Others have been resistant to my way of thinking.

Once again, they have the best of intentions, but they fail to understand key concepts and continue to feel that ownership of evil black rifles and regular concealed carry are strange and do more harm than good.

It is true that I do care, to a degree, at least enough that I would want to educate and persuade them to think more like me, but in the end, they will believe what they will and I have no ultimate control over that. I won't lose sleep over it at night.

I am a firm believer in educating people on the issue though, as well as introducing new people to the idea that gun ownership is not only "not bad", but actually a very good thing. Most reasonable/logical beings are receptive to this. I teach those that are willing to hear it. When people are resistant to my message, I move along.

 

[mvpel]

Unlike on TV, the Taser in reality doesn't render the bad guy unconscious. The moment the current is turned off, the effects stop, and the subject can get right back up and start going at you again if he's so inclined.

 

[chris in va]

Ah, the beauty of the 'net. Stuff gets typed that would never be said to someone's face.

But anyway dbl, I've posted about the same subject before. Frankly I feel the 'firearm' isn't the best way to disable a BG, and I agree with what you're trying to say. Both guns and tasers fail on occasion.

But until someone comes up with a much better way of stopping a threat, it's what we have to work with. Personally I'd like to see a device that turns BG's into fluffy little bunnies, but we'll leave that to Looney Tunes.

 

[EastSideRich]

nevermind

I think many have missed my point, or at least misunderstood my question.
I thought I was articulate enough in my two or three posts, but maybe not.

HYPOTHETICALLY:

Originally posted by ME:
If you had the option of carrying a "gun" that would very effectively incapacitate without actually putting holes in someone, would you use it?
If not why?

So yes, basically:

Originally posted by rwilson452
If I could "phaser on stun" instead of a firearm

I don’t think I in any way implied guns are bad, or people shouldn’t carry guns ( I fully intend to get a CCW permit in the coming up year, and WOULD NOT HESITATE to use a firearm if the situation required it). I have no moral dilemma and am not worried about the fate of an individual who wants to harm me.

Originally posted by Redneckrepairs
Years of working LE convinced me that nice guys who fight fair and try not to hurt someone " too bad " get to see either the emergency room or the morgue.

Not worried about fighting fair or hurting someone "too bad". If you get shot, tough break, you shouldn’t have tried to rob/beat/kill/whatever me. If you succumb to your wounds, sorry, but you shouldn’t have tried to rob/……. me.

I am not trying to change peoples mind or suggest they should not carry.

I was simply hoping for real arguments against, such as:

Originally posted by fivepaknh:
There's also the psychological effect of having a real gun. I BG may see a Tazer and know that in the end he'll still be alive. He may then take a chance he wouldn't if he saw you had a gun.

Or

Originally posted by Redneckrepairs:
You also have to realize that the tazer is more effective the further the darts spread when they impact, a close set of hits can and has been overcome by many including myself . Also heavy or loose clothing may interfere with tazer performance or render it ineffective .

I was interested in seeing things that would make me think: “yeah, that’s a good point” than getting anyone riled up, or eliciting semi-insulting responses, just interested in seeing how other people think.


I still don’t get this (or that whole post, and the one about the crux of this argument for that matter):

Originally posted by Tourist:
In fact, I would counsel you to stop mimicking the machismo you hear.

***

Any way, I think I’ll keep it to technical questions from now on.

Also, Thank you chris in va.