Difficult extraction in .357 Blackhawk - the load, or the gun?

[Ruark]

I have a stainless 6 1/2" new model Blackhawk in .357. I've been using 16.6 gr. of H110, SPM primers, 158 gr. XTPs. 16.6 is the max load for this setup, according to Hornady and other sources. It works fine.

Problem is, most of the spent cases are difficult to extract. There's usually at least one per cylinder where I have to grip the barrel with both hands and press with both thumbs on the extractor to get it out.

Question: is this a problem with the cylinder, or with the max load? I've heard both, and that this is a common problem with Blackhawks. I could use a reduced load, but my powder measure, sights, etc. are all set up for my current load, and I'd like to avoid changing everything for no reason.

If it IS the load, how much should I reduce it to eliminate the problem? Would going down to, say, 16.2 do it? I want to stay as near a max load as possible.

 

[pilpens]

--- Normal if you shoot .38 before .357.
--- Make sure the cylinders are clean.
--- Shoot factory standard .357 loads. If you still have a problem. I would think it is the cylinders. Have a Ruger Gunsmith look at it.
--- If problem only occurs with max loads, then reduce load. Max load specs maybe too much for your particular revolver. Let Ruger customer service know.
--- Reloading - always start at the low end of the range and work your way up.

 

[Rifleman1776]

As already suggested, try factory rounds. If problem persists contact Ruger. If problem does not exist you need to adjust your loads.

 

[jimbob86]

Hmmmmmm.......

have a stainless 6 1/2" new model Blackhawk in .357. I've been using 16.6 gr. of H110, SPM primers, 158 gr. XTPs. 16.6 is the max load for this setup, according to Hornady and other sources. It works fine.

..... According to my Hornady 5th Edition, Max load of H110 is 15.6 gr with the 158 gr XTP...... maybe the newer manual sez different, but if you are having extraction problems, that's a pretty good cluebat that your load is too hot, regardless of what any book says.

 

[rclark]

According to my Hornady 5th Edition, Max load of H110 is 15.6 gr with the 158 gr XTP

H110 Max Load: 15.6g in my Hornady 7th Edition manual. 16.6g in 3rd Edition manual.

Your gun will handle it no problem, but if I was having extraction problems, I'd back off on the load.

 

[Ruark]

Interesting, Jim Bob. The 7th edition shows 15.6, too. But 16.6 is published all over the place. The Hogdon chart shows the max as 16.7. Winchester, 16.6. Sierra, 16.3.

I think I'll carefully experiment a little, with 15.8 and 16.0 and see what happens.

 

[spacecoast]

I run that load with 16.0 grains in my 686 without a problem. The max. on the Hodgdon site is 16.6. The minimum is 15.3 gr. IIRC and it's important not to go below the min. with H110.

I'd reduce at least a few tenths and see if that helps. I also question the need to run at absolute max. other than it's convenient to do so. Your sights aren't going to change if you drop it down a little.

 

[windshear]

How does the gun shoot? If it's quite accurate, dial back your loads until extraction is easy and let it go at that. Often the revolvers with tight chambers are very accurate.

If the gun is a real shooter DO NOT send it back to Ruger and complain about hard extraction or tight chambers. They'll ream 'em a bit and send it back. You'll end up with sloppy chambers and a very inaccurate revolver...at least that's what happened to my BH Bisley. Still kicking myself over that one.
Bob

 

[rclark]

FYI, My Hornady manuals shows H110 minimum of 12.1g and 12.7 grains in the manuals for the 158g XTP... Some room to play.

 

[spacecoast]

Hodgdon web site shows a min of 15.0 and a max of 16.7. I'd believe that before any manual.

http://data.hodgdon.com/cartridge_load.asp

 

[rclark]

Not me, I check 'all' sources that I have and compare, then make own judgement . Speer #14 manual shows 13.7 as minimum for example for their jacketed 158g bullet. That's why we reloaders have several hard copy resources to check (other than the internet). At last count I have around 8 manuals on the shelf for reference.... Soon to 9, with the new 8th edition of the Hornady manual.

 

[jimbob86]

Interesting, Jim Bob. The 7th edition shows 15.6, too. But 16.6 is published all over the place. The Hogdon chart shows the max as 16.7. Winchester, 16.6. Sierra, 16.3.

I think I'll carefully experiment a little, with 15.8 and 16.0 and see what happens

Maybe they noted extraction problems and toned the load down some.....

You can load it up to max w/o damaging the gun.... but TANSTAAFL: apparently your cases don't like the beating they are taking, and are complaining a bit.

What bullet did Hodgdon use in their load development? How about Winchester? Sierra? A harder bullet might raise pressures.... I know Speer tones down their Gold Dot loads for this reason. When in doubt, I use the bullet manufacturer's data, and as always, if you change any component, start at the start load, and work up.....if you run into signs of high pressures, like flattened primers or difficult extraction......

 

[shooter1911]

Speer #13 says a max load of 15.5gr of H110 for 158gr .357.

 

[spacecoast]

Not me, I check 'all' sources that I have and compare, then make own judgement

Yeah, but we have the advantage of querying Unclenick on the Reloading forum, he discussed this about 6 months or so ago I think the Hodgdon numbers are good, after all it is their powder. If I want to run a mild load, there are better powders to use than H110.

I recommend you take a look at this thread, some good info there although the discussion was originally about primers -
http://thefiringline.com/forums/showthread.php?t=406179

Post #24 in particular

 

[curt.45]

is it possible that only one chamber is tight? have you marked the one that is tight to see if its the same one each time? maybe it missed the final polish? and its not your loads at all?

 

[44 AMP]

Forget book max!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

Because the book maximum is the max safe load developed with the listed components IN THE TEST GUN!!!!

Every gun is a little bit different, and some will have a max safe load above, or below the one listed in the book.

Each edition of the loading books changes the max a bit, because they use different guns each time. Even two identical guns may have different max load levels. Don't assume that since their test gun had a max load at X.x gr, that yours will be the same. That's the reason for working up a load. I have seen guns that showed max pressure signs with one books starting loads, and others that didn't show any signs until the max load was exceeded by a scary amount!

You might have a gun with one chamber a little "rougher" than the rest. Or it might be a little tighter (so there is higher presure in that one chamber), or there could be some crud in the chamber, or a scratch, or some other reason.

If there is no problem shooting factory ammo from the sticky chamber, either reduce the load a bit, or don't load that chamber! IF you get sticky extraction from that chamber when clean, shooting factory ammo, then it needs to see a smith, one who knows what (and how) to do, not bubba down the street.

Book max loads are a guideline, reporting what they got, with what they used. They will always advise you not to exceed their max, and it is sound advice, because they have no way of telling what your gun will take.

Reloading data is not gospel, its a good reporting of what they tested and what results they achieved. Its a good, safe place to start, but not the be all, end all of infomation.

You didn't mention what brass you were using. That can make a difference also. Some lots are "softer" than others. Try backing off the load a bit, using different cases (working up the load) and see if you get the same results. Measure the fired cases from the sticky chamber, see if they are any different than the fired cases from the rest of the cylinder (you did keep them separate, right?)

It could be you have one chamber slightly out of spec. I have a Blackhawk in .45 that has one chamber that shoots "away" from the rest. Only about half an inch at close range, but a couple of feet at 200yds! Its not unheard of for one chamber to be "off" from the rest.

 

[rclark]

If I want to run a mild load, there are better powders to use than H110.

I agree with this statement.

The Internet is the last place I look for reloading data. I do look as just other resource though, but never as a 'if it's on the internet' it must be ok mentality . As for minimum load, well, If most reference manuals (not on-line stuff) agree, then it's ok to do as far as I am concerned. Might not be accurate, might not burn as well, but it will not be dangerous. There was a time before the internet BTW .

 

[Ruark]

Thanks for all the replies. Later this evening I am going to load some lighter rounds to see what happens. Then I will post back here with the results.

ALL the chambers are usually difficult to extract; I'm not sure if it's a specific chamber that's sticking badly; that's a good question. Incidentally, that really tough extraction, the one where you need both thumbs on the extractor rod, occurs maybe every 3rd or 4th cylinder full, not every one.

It may also be notable that on all cylinders, the "sticky" part is when the case has come out about 1/4". Before and after that, they practically fall out.

Brass is Federal, brand new, never been shot.

One negative: if it turns out to be the 16.6 load, I'm sitting here with about 200 rounds freshly loaded at 16.6....

Stay tuned, will get back later this evening on the load-reduction results.

 

[longranger]

How is the powder being measured ? metered through a Powder Measure could account for +- a few tenths of a grain this would account for the "sticky" extraction.If you need max loads perhaps go up in caliber/cartridge is a better solution than "max loads". Never understood max loads to shoot targets or any thing else for that matter.
Real Men shoot max loads ?

 

[hammie]

I double dog agree with everything above. However, another thing to consider: maybe it is the chambers? Have you examined the chambers for roughness? I think stainless steel is harder to machine (it tears instead of cuts), and in general, it has always seemed that my stainless guns have more tool marks than the blued steel ones. I had a 657 (.41 rem mag) that always exhibited sticky extraction with normal loads. Sometimes I had to tap them out with a rod. The chambers looked as if they had been cut with a rasp. After polishing the chambers with some fine jeweler's rouge, the fired, empty cases then literally fell out of the gun when it was tipped. If you polish, do it carefully and slowly, or you'll have bigger problems.

@RUARK: What an appropriate users name. It evokes images of colonial africa and safaris, mau mau uprisings, using enough gun, john taylor's african rifles and cartridges, hemmingway, and of course, robert ruark.