Different ways to grip a handgun

[ceetee]

Reading the thread on stances made me think about something. In all of my formal training, I used a revolver. I was taught to grip the revolver with the thumb of my support hand crossed over the thumb of my strong hand, locking both hands together.

Now, I watch the pros more carefully, and I've seen the videos showing the thumb of the support hand beside the strong hand thumb, parallel with the barrel. Is there a "best" way? Is there any detriment to shooting an auto using a grip like I've described using on the revolver?

Your comments will be appreciated!

 

[Samurai]

As a newbie, I'm in the same boat that you are. My understanding of the auto-grip is that the action of aligning both thumbs toward the target will properly align your wrists to the bore, thereby improving your natural aim.

But, with autos, the bore is typically much closer to the grip. In revolvers, the interlocking of the thumbs helps hold the gun steady, a device for dealing with increased recoil. I believe the interlocking thumb grip also serves to move your thumbs off of the cylinder to allow proper revolution of the cylinder.

 

[Lurper]

For a revolver, the grip you described is fine provided that your wrist position is the same and you aren't squeezing the gun. If you extend your weak hand thumb, it will end up under the cylinder gap and that is not a pretty thing. The problem most people have with grip is that they think it means squeezing the pistol like you would squeeze a tennis ball in the palm of your hand. It does not. Neither does it mean grip the pistol tightly. Gripping the pistol tightly only causes the muzzle to tremble. It doesn't matter how strong you are, you cannot control recoil by strength. The grip comes from a pinching action between the strong and weak hand. Your grip should be loose but firm like a steering wheel. It should also be neutral - no undue tension or force in any direction (no pushing with one hand pulling with the other, etc.). The weak hand wrist is rotated slightly more forward than the strong hand wrist to achieve neutrality. The gun will be centered in front of your strong hand eye, not your body. This means that both arms cannot be neutral because one is bent less than the other. Rotating the weak hand wrist allows the weak arm to be bent the same as the strong arm acheiving neutrality. Your wrists should be firm, your elbows relaxed.

 

[full foot notch]

cant forget that gansta grip cuz, cocked to the side so i get that vertical aim

just kidding

i always learned good grip with the strong hand, good contact of the webbing of the hand between the thumb and pointing finger with the back of the firearm, full wrap of fingers around front of grip, and then with the weak hand wrap around the front of the hand that is contacting the firearm, the weak hand sorta has that water cupping look with all the fingers touching with the thumb completely against the hand, but its prety much a good wrap with the strong hand, one way, and then wrapping the other way with the weak hand, overlapping fingers, no intertwining of fingers

 

[ceetee]

Does it make a difference (or rather, how much of a difference does it make) if you wrap your left thumb over the right to create that pincher rather than having the left thumb along the right, parallel to the barrel? It just seems that I get a firmer grip by having more of the left hand in contact with more of the right.

Then again, I'm not a competitor, just a hobbyist...

 

[JJB2]

handguns magazine this month has a little story on the GANGSTA style of turning your handgun side ways and brustin a few caps like the big boys!! rick hacker wrote the piece and like him i can't figure out why on earth anyone with half a brain might do such a thing.......... he did say that he thought that hold would string shots to the right. i think.. isn't gravity constant and verticle???????????



LIFE IS SHORT..........

 

[Blackwater OPS]

This came up before and someone posted some really great videos, maybe someone can link to that.

 

[swk314]

this is the video i believe you are referring too

http://video.google.com/videoplay?docid=-4584332856867071363&q=todd&hl=en

 

[Blackwater OPS]

yes! That's the one, thanks swk.

 

[mete]

Just try different grips and pick the one that is most comfortable .Many of the recommendations by the 'experts ' are for their hands and their gun. You need to do what's best for your gun and your hand , they are all different !!

 

[Lurper]

Just try different grips and pick the one that is most comfortable .Many of the recommendations by the 'experts ' are for their hands and their gun. You need to do what's best for your gun and your hand , they are all different !!

Yeah, because there is no one best way to do things. Besides, those guys who shoot for a living don't know what they are talking about anyway!:barf:

I get so tired of hearing people say things like "everbody's different" or "that works for them but not for me". The only reason that what works for them won't work for you is either because no one has shown you the proper method or your mind is closed to learning it. All the top shooters do things the same basic way. That's because it works. It came about from decades of research and trial. If you want to know how to become and expert, watch what other experts do, then when the opportunity presents itself pick their brains.

 

[Sarge]

Lurper,

I have been teaching cops to shoot for about 15 years now, and have had the opportunity to watch several other instructors along the way. The ones that routinely produce the worst shooters are the ones who try to teach one grip, one stance, one gun etc. and then growl and snap at students who do not adapt to their 'one trick pony' teaching doctrine. This simply closes their minds and all they want is for the training to be over with. Those students take nothing from the experience except unpleasant memories of 'range day.'

I have had the good fortune to train a few 50-60 man departments on a regular basis. The vast majority of them allowed the officer to choose their own weapon within certain paramaters. A lot of them weren't men, weren't bodybuilders or ironmen, and a lot of them had been trained in the manner described above. We worked with them on various grips and stances until we found something that worked instinctivly for their anatomy, their strength level, and with their gun. I am one of the few 'old holdouts' that require shooters to actually hit at 25 yards...50% of the possible is fired from 15 yards on out. We commonly take shooters from the low 60's and get them into the high 80's-low 90's in two or three runs through the course. I guess it must be working.

One more point on the 'strong on weak thumb' grip. I have seen a lot of problems with guys trying to shoot certain guns like this, and then getting one of their thumbs into the slide stop and locking the gun open before it's empty. In June I had 3 guys on one range with XD's; two of them were having this problem. Once we got their thumbs back down, weak thumb on strong, the problem disappeared.

When I asked why they were shooting this was, two answered that someone had shown them how to "shoot tactically." We didn't have any problem agreeing however that is just wasn't very 'tactically sound' to be standing there with your slide locked open when you ought to be shooting.

For some folks, with some guns, the thumbs-foreward grip works fine. Enos, Leatham etc. shoot the way they do, and they're great shots. They also don't have drunks trying to wrestle the gun away, or kick it out of their hands, and they're not going to have to hold the gun in one hand and fight with the other. They aren't shooting "Plus P" JHP defense loads. Often these folks are shooting tricked-out guns, and getting boxcars of free ammo to shoot while perfecting their individual technique.

These guys are also 'gamesmen'- I'm am not. It ain't a game to us. I'm trying to teach these guys the simplest, most easlily-learned and instinctive methods to stay alive. (PS-I get the 'LURP' thing too, so I imagine you know what I'm talking about here. Thank you for serving.) Despite the fact we don't have boatloads of ammo and unlimited time, I still turn out some pretty good shots. A couple of them have used what I've taught them to get home- when the 'threat' didn't.

 

[Blackwater OPS]

I see both sides of this. It reminds me of the debate between traditional martial arts styles and contemporary, some would say more practical, "street" styles. Bottom line, neither is wrong, and the true master of the art will take what he needs from both and develop his own style that is superior to both. The same holds true for gunfighting.

But the person asking the question starting this thread simply wanted to learn some basic skills, and specifically to know which grip was best. The answer, I think, is clear: try both and stick with what works best for you. Personally, I thought that video showed the best way to hold the pistol, but experiment, and if you find another way that works better for you, USE IT! And tell us about it as well.

 

[BillCA]

To answer ceetee's question directly...

Is there any detriment to shooting an auto using a grip like I've described using on the revolver?

The primary "detriment" will be to your weak hand thumb with the slide recoils over the knuckle.


Todd Jarrett's video is pretty good and with the exception of the weak hand thumb position, it's about the way I was taught to shoot.

When I fired nothing but revolvers, my weak hand thumb could often be found resting on the top of the strong-hand's thumb-forefinger web. This felt "natural" to me at the time.

When learning to shoot pistol, however, the first absent-minded moment taught me to keep that thumb out of the way. I did try the method Jarrett showed, at an instructor's insistence. However, for me, I found the edge of my weak thumb sliced by a reciprocating slide on a new 1911. And I sometimes impaired the slide lock with pressure from my thumb.

My grip has the following characteristics
1. Bore axis in line with my forearm
2. Pad of trigger finger on the center of the trigger
3. Strong thumb pointed forward parallel to the plunger tube on the frame
4. Weak hand thumb pad resting on top of the strong hand thumb's nail.
5. Weak hand index fingertip pad resting on the front curve of the triggerguard.

This feels "natural" to me now and works with wheelguns as well as self-shuckers. I find that this gives me a more solid feeling grip and better control during rapid fire.

 

[Lurper]

For some folks, with some guns, the thumbs-foreward grip works fine. Enos, Leatham etc. shoot the way they do, and they're great shots. They also don't have drunks trying to wrestle the gun away, or kick it out of their hands, and they're not going to have to hold the gun in one hand and fight with the other. They aren't shooting "Plus P" JHP defense loads. Often these folks are shooting tricked-out guns, and getting boxcars of free ammo to shoot while perfecting their individual technique.

We'll have to agree to disagree on this one inv. I'm not saying it is the right way, I am saying it is the best way. There is a difference. If someone has problems with that style grip, it is because they weren't taught properly. Obviously they are putting pressure on the slide stop which is not correct. I can't address tactics a whole lot, but one thing I can address are the mechanics of shooting. Leatham, Enos, Jarret are all highly skilled, I have shot with them for years. They (we) can perform the same with full power ammo in stock guns. I might also point out that IPSC ammo has a power factor which requires full power ammo.

Here's a link to a video of a couple of drills with a stock borrowed Kimber with full power loads.
http://s89.photobucket.com/albums/k223/Lurper/?action=view&current=Kimberdrills.flv

Also, Rob, Todd and myself regularly compete with single stack 1911's. There are very few modifications allowed in that class. My point is that these guys are the best when it comes to pure shooting technique. Many L.E. agencies and several SPECOPS units have used them as consultants. One thing we can teach anyone to do is get lead on the target faster. Sometimes that in itself is a live saving skill.

I appreciate your thanks, just doing what I thought I should. I also appreciate your point of view. However, I am a passionate believer in what I do and will believe in it until I die. I was taught to shoot Weaver by Ray Chapman back in the 80's. Then I started competing and was converted. The best thing about this technique is that it works for everyone. I have taught it for many years to many people (Civilians, L.E. and Military) and have yet to find someone it doesn't work for. It removes many of the preconceived notions of other styles - like the idea you can control recoil with pure strength. It works standing, sitting, kneeling, moving, seated, even prone. It enable shooters to get lead on the target faster, fire faster follow-up shots and transition to multiple targets faster.


Too many people want to make a distinction between "Gamesmen" and "Martial Artists". I think that is folly. Both can learn from each other. But when it comes to pure shooting skills, these guys are the best.

 

[ceetee]

Thanks for all of the thoughtful responses. That's why I read these forums faithfully! There's always somebody that can do something better than I can, and is willing to share that knowledge. Once in a while, there's something I know that I can share, too.

My main issue is that after being taught to shoot by wrapping my left thumb over my right, it just doesn't feel natural to not have that connection there. I've watched all the videos I can, but videos can only show, they can't do, or critique what your performance.

I guess, when all's said and done, I just need to BA-UU-R, while maintaining focus on grip, sight picture, and trigger squeeze, and see what happens.

Thanks again!

 

[Sarge]

We'll have to agree to disagree on this one inv. I'm not saying it is the right way, I am saying it is the best way. There is a difference. If someone has problems with that style grip, it is because they weren't taught properly.

Disagree we shall then, albeit politely.

I think some of the folks I mentioned were indeed taught properly; then they go back to shooting with buddies, etc. and 'pure technique' goes out the window. I also think if one shoots that grip, with only semiautos, to the exclusion of everything else, they can do excellent work with it. Add to the mix someone with excellent reflexes and hand eye coordination, who is committed to excelling at one gun/one discipline, and you end up with a Leatham, Enos, or Jarret.

We'd like to be able to teach them all to drive like Richard Petty, too (and although some of them think they already can ) but that ain't happening. We need for them to get from point A to point B in the most expeditious manner possible, without killing themselves or somebody else, or running carloads of nuns off the road in the process. Petty could probably get there faster- but we need them to get there every time. Once they get there, another set of problems presents itself.

I'm not saying it is the right way, I am saying it is the best way. There is a difference.

And I'm saying that the best way for each individual shooter is the right way. I've shot Weaver, but I'm not married to it. I carry an auto for work, but I also carry revolvers at work and my 'off-work' gun for years has been a 4" .44 Magnum- though for years it was a duty gun, too. These days time it's usually loaded with 250's at 1250, but I still qualify with it on occasion using 210 Silvertip-level loads.

I find this with the people I teach as well- many of them have a snubnosed magnum revolver for off-duty or backup. Some of them even shoot big ol' hard-kicking single actions. They need to learn a grip that will work instinctively, regardless of the gun they are reaching for.

The grip I described in my earlier post works with revolvers or autos, regardless of action type or recoil level. It works with various weapon retention techniques, and the position of the strong hand remains the same whether one hand or two is being used. Note-My finger is on the trigger in the following photos, to illustrate that the grip facilitates proper placement of the trigger finger.

Now I'll admit that I haven't tried the 'clamshell grip' with a .357 snub, a short .44 Mag or a Freedom Arms .454...I believe I'll stick with something that works, for me, instead.

PS- I admire your passion, and I congratulate you on having had the opportunity to train and shoot with the 'cream of the crop' over a period that can only be described as revolutionary in terms of shooting technique. I'll leave you with the last word on this one, secure in the knowledge that we're probably not going to change each others' minds. Good visiting with you.

 

[ceetee]

That's a good pic to illustrate what I'm talking about. The grip I was taught has the left thumb crossing the right thumb right inbetween the two joints, not at the tip like that shows. Gripping with your left hand then creates a vise to hold the right hand steady.

It works well on revolvers, and as I've been shooting that way with my autos I haven't had any issues with the left thumb interfering with the slide.

I'm still going to try shooting as in the Jarrett video. I would like any other opinions, though, on this grip, the way it's displayed.

 

[Jack Malloy]

The important thing to remember is that the human thumb was designed to GRASP.
Your thumbs are opposable, unlike other primates.
Which means you are meant to close them down on the weapons sides, and not stick them in the air like you are hitchiking.

A decade or two ago, people prone to the games'mans "Hitchhikers Guide the Galaxy" grip had "shield gaurds" installed on their pistols to keep malfs from happening when the thumb up in the air hit the slide and caused a jam.
Today, the same guys go overboard with oversized thumb safeis and overdone grip safeties, when all that is needed is to understand that unless you are covered with orange fur and living up a tree, your thumb was meant to lock down, not stick up....:barf:

 

[Lurper]

A decade or two ago, people prone to the games'mans "Hitchhikers Guide the Galaxy" grip had "shield gaurds" installed on their pistols to keep malfs from happening when the thumb up in the air hit the slide and caused a jam.
Today, the same guys go overboard with oversized thumb safeis and overdone grip safeties, when all that is needed is to understand that unless you are covered with orange fur and living up a tree, your thumb was meant to lock down, not stick up....

Gee, I must have missed the time when all the best shooters in the world had that revelation. If you want to become a pro, look at what the pros do. All of the top shooters use this technique because it is the most effective.

CEETEE,
Here are a couple of photos showing a proper grip. There is a video available when I find out how, I will link it. I tried to get some excerpts but the files were too large.

http://i89.photobucket.com/albums/k223/Lurper/Grip2.jpg
This one shows proper positioning of the strong hand. It should be as high as possible relative to the axis of the bore. Your thumb should rest on top of the safety if the pistol has one. Note there is no squeezing of the fingers around the firearm - you hold it loose but firm.

http://i89.photobucket.com/albums/k223/Lurper/Grip1.jpg
This one shows placement of the week hand. The heel of you palm contacts the grip in the area between the fingers and heel of your strong hand palm. Again, don't squeeze the pistol with your fingers. If you extend your arms at this point, you will notice that your weak arm is bent more than your strong arm. That's because the pistol is centered in front of your strong side eye, not your body. You can't have a neutral grip that way.

http://i89.photobucket.com/albums/k223/Lurper/Grip3.jpg
So, you have to rotate your weak hand wrist forward, like pointing your thumb at the target. The important thing to keep in mind about your weak hand thumb is that it should just rest against the pistol. It shouldn't push against it or exert force in any direction. The main point to keep in mind is to relax and have fun.

In the 80's and 90's, shooting technique made a quantum leap. Driven primarily by top IPSC competitors like Leatham, Enos, Jarret, Barnhart, Shaw, Koenig, myself and others. This was due to many factors, not the least of which was the realization that relaxation is the key to shooting extremly fast (and accurate). Times dropped dramatically. For example: one of the early drills was the "El Presidente" which required the shooter to start with back to 3 targets at 7 yards with hands in the surrender position (above the shoulders). On the start signal the shooter would turn, draw, hit each target twice, reload and hit each target twice again (12 rounds total). In the early days, 6 seconds was considered a good score. By the mid 80's low 4 second runs were considered good. Now if you arent under 4, it isn't even remarkable.
Learning to shoot relaxed and naturally will allow you to shoot like that.