Dies

[ghbucky]

I'm looking into upgrading my press into a progressive, and I got a lot of great feedback in another thread about that.

Now I want to ask about dies.

I've typically used LEE carbide dies for my pistol loading, which is pretty much exclusively what I load. However, a couple of years ago I picked up an AR and the LGS only had Hornady dies for .223. I've used those for loading my sole rifle caliber.

I can't really tell any difference between the quality of outcome between the Hornady rifle dies, and the carbide LEE pistol dies. (obviously, the rifle rounds are much more accurate).

I'm looking at picking up a Dillon press, and their dies are 40+ weeks backorder for 9mm.

I know that a lot of reloaders look down on LEE gear as substandard, but I honestly do not understand what I gain by paying 2x or 3x the price for dies from someone like Dillon (not to mention waiting a year for them!).

Educate me.

 

[Marco Califo]

Most of my dies are Lee. There is absolutely no difference in the quality of the ammo you can make because of die brand. Lee dies work fine.
However, that does not mean I do not appreciate the quality of craftsmanship and appearance of Redding dies: they make very many different dies and they are not cheap.
I like the Lyman expander M dies, and got one for each pistol caliber I load. I bought Lyman 45 ACP dies when I bought a pistol.
Most, buts not ALL, major brand equipment is interchangeable.
I will add that I exclusivly prefer some Lee innovative dies, like the collet neck sizers, FCD'S, and universal deprimer. And my Lee handpress gets a lot of use.

 

[44 AMP]

When I first took up reloading, I lived in the northeast and Lyman was on eery shelf, and not a lot else. So, that's what I got.

A decade later, I had moved out west and RCBS was everywhere and Lyman was rare. SO, as I expanded and upgraded my loading set up, most of it became RCBS.

I have a few Lee dies, don't much care for them. Not because they don't make good ammo, but because I don't care for their features or finish. I don't care for their lock rings, or plastic seating stems, and I only get Lee when I need dies for a new caliber and there are no others available. Got a Lee .32acp set when I got a .32 it worked ok, later I replaced it with an RCBS set, more for commonality than any real need.

Picked up a .38/.357 set in a trade. Used them, didn't like the large "step" the sizer left at the case head. Went back to my old Lymans. I do once in a while use the Lee seater, when I want to load RN bullets, but not for anything else.

Totally a matter of personal preference, nothing wrong with Lee, I just don't care for them much. Since dies basically last forever unless until you ruin them, I don't see where a few bucks makes much difference, and I'll spend a little more to get what I want, even when something a bit cheaper will also do the job well enough, but, that's just me.

 

[Metal god]

If I were to get a Dillon I’d continue to use all the same dies I use now . I’d see no reason to buy new dies for a new press . I like you , use all Lee dies for pistol cartridges. I like several things about lees dies . One of which is there collet crimp dies and there mouth expander powder through die works great on my lee turret press . I use mostly Redding for rifle dies but do have Hornady 30-30 dies . I’d use all of those with the Dillon as well . A buddy of mine only uses Dillon dies on his Dillon . He bought a M1A which was his first 308 . He said the Dillon dies were on back order and I offered to “give” him a set of Redding dies and he said No I’ll wait to each his own I guess .

 

[jetinteriorguy]

Not sure which caliber you’re planning on loading, but I’ll offer my limited experience. I only load 9mm on my 550B and here’s my setup. I size and decap with a Lee die and there’s barely enough threads left for the lock ring to work once it’s adjusted properly, but it does work. I’m using the NOE powder through expander setup with a Pro Disc powder dispenser that works great. I’m using a Dillon seating die that came with the press, and it really is a slick setup the way you can just pop the stem out and reverse it for different profiles without removing the whole die. The final stage is a Lee Factory Crimp die that works great.

 

[Mk VII]

Lee dies look a bit cheap, but I've had plenty of them, and the product they turn out works just as well, mostly. I've replaced the rubber ring in all of them by tapping the lock ring for a grub screw.

 

[Wag]

When I first started reloading, I bought some Lee carbide dies and someone gave me a few more. I still use them and they work fine but when I buy new dies now, I use RCBS.

--Wag--

 

[Unclenick]

All die brands will work. I would start with Lee for price reasons if you can't get the Dillon dies and then move to the Dillons later, or, if you like how the Lee dies are finishing the rounds, get just the Dillon sizing die when it becomes available. This is for a couple of reasons. One is that the flare at the mouth of the Dillon die is a little wider than most. With every other sizing die I've tried, occasionally, a case mouth will catch on the edge of the die mouth and mangle the lip of the case mouth. This almost never happens with the Dillon sizing die because of the wider mouth flare. I think that because Dillon was developing a progressive loader, they identified this problem early on and altered their sizing die design to handle it.

The second reason is that you are loading a caliber with a lot of range pickup brass available that you will either collect or accidentally get mixed in with your other brass. A lot of it will be military or commercial military-style brass with crimped primers. Some will be foreign brass that often has unusually tight primer pockets that can hold onto a primer pretty firmly. The Dillon die has a decapping feature that helps kick these primers out. When you decap a case with a hard-to-push-out primer in the conventional fashion, they occasionally are stuck hard enough so the decapping pin stretches them in the middle, and sometimes that stretch will form the bottom of the primer cup over the decapping pin and hold onto it. When that occurs, lowering the press ram can partially reseat the spent primer with the force needed to pull the decapping pin out of the stretch part as it withdraws from the die. At that point, it is a protruding primer that traps the case in the shell holder or shell plate station and prevents rotation of a progressive shell plate and would block seating a new primer even if it did rotate. Recognizing this would jam up the loading sequence on a progressive, Dillon designed its decapper with a spring-loaded snap hammer like an automatic center punch, so it cocks and snaps downward at the end of the resizing stroke to throw these primers off the tip of the decapping pin so they can't try to reseat.

Now, to be fair, that primer-stuck-on-the-decapping-pin situation is more likely to occur with large primers than with small ones. Also, when you have a primer that is seated hard enough to cause that problem, the odds are you will have to pull it from the sizing station and remove the remaining crimp or swage it or run a primer pocket profiling reamer into it before you can get a primer to seat fully into it. So you end up either using a separate single-stage press with a universal decapping die to decap this stuff separately the first time you reload it, or you resize and decap and slip the case out the first station before the shell plate rotates in order to have an opportunity to address the crimp or tight pocket. If you miss one and have trouble priming it, you can get into the same issue with jamming rotation.

One trick is to segregate the cases you bring back from the range into yours and the pickups and do the separate decapping just on the pickups, and run them through a swager or ream them as insurance. You can mark your own cases by nicking the rim with a file or putting punch marks somewhere in the headstamp where you can spot it quickly just in case some of your pickups have an otherwise matching headstamp.

 

[ghbucky]

Appreciate the tips on the decapping step.

I long ago moved decapping off of my main press. I now decap on a dedicated single stage press and that gives me a chance to catch crimped primers before I try to seat a primer.

I follow that up with wet tumbling the brass because I got fed up with my press getting gummed up with range residue.

I've seen a lot of discussions about steps for decapping on a progressive, and I wonder why people do that? I guess it is extra steps, but I have buckets full of de-primed, clean brass just waiting to go.

 

[Nathan]

There is a lot to unpack in your post….

First, Lee dies are not BAD. They are cheaply made.

Lee does things like making the decapping pin a collet fit to a smooth pin that is the pin and mandrel combined. If you break or bend the pin, you have to buy a whole new one. It can also slide in the collet.

Looking inside the dies, they have a rougher finish. Not bad unless it catches brass.

On the Seater, they use an aluminum adjust plug which can move inconsistently under seating pressure. They use a fixed seater with the case guided by the looser die body.

For more money, you can get….Hornady with the semi-threaded decapper which has the alignment of a collet and the resistance to movement of threads. ….and a replaceable decapper and mandrel.

There are seater improvements too.

Additionally as money goes up, you can get bushing dies that allow fine neck diameter control or variable mandrel sizes, sliding sleeve seaters, micrometer seaters, better finish…..and so on.

So why all this stuff. First, better ways to setup your dies, more repeatability of dimensions, possibly longer brass life, better fit to chamber.

How do I know? Well, I have a comparator that measures to 0.0005” accuracy, micrometers to measure diameters, calipers with and without jigs to measure CBTD & CBTO.

Now, how do you see the impact on target. That would be interesting….load the same load in like 5 different die sets….hmm.

 

[ghbucky]

Thanks, Nathan... that is the kind of thing I was after.

How would different die manufacturers change impact on target for 9mm at less than 50yds? I have a hard time believing that would really make any noticeable difference.

Where do Redding dies fit in the spectrum of fit/finish? (Dillon 9mm are simply unavailable. I have a full set of Lee now, but I've seen Redding available).

 

[Marco Califo]

Lee does things like making the decapping pin a collet fit to a smooth pin that is the pin and mandrel combined. If you break or bend the pin

The Universal Decapping die pin/mandrel does NOT BREAK (but you cannot de-prime Berdan primed cases with it). This is an excellent design feature. I bought a spare pin/mandrel 20+ years ago, and occasionally see it rolling around somewhere. Usually, near a packet of RCBS de-priming pins (I don't use those anymore). I think the Universal decapper cannot be improved. It just works as it should.

Unclenick posted above

using a separate single-stage press with a universal decapping die to decap this stuff separately

To me, depriming is the FIRST step in case prep, followed by inspection and any needed remediation, (not to mention tumbling with steel pins). I use a Frankfort Arsenal hand de-primer on pistol brass (while watching TV). I am not a fan of loading less than fully prepped cases. Finding a problem while loading at a press breaks rhythm and productivity.

Redding dies are great, but expensive. They offer increasingly expensive sets and features (small base & body sizer dies, micrometer seating dies, sizing dies that use bushings for final size). I really like their knurled shell-holders. Top shelf, but you pay for it. Not really necessary, but you feel good looking at them. The question I ask myself is: Is it really a necessary expenditure? Small pieces like small base body sizers are easier to afford. I do not ever expect to purchase one of their top of line sets.

 

[44 AMP]

How would different die manufacturers change impact on target for 9mm at less than 50yds? I have a hard time believing that would really make any noticeable difference.

it won't, and it can't, unless you horribly misadjust things and mangle the ammo. 9mm pistol, right? probably a semi auto service type Browning tilt lock design variant, yes?? Sights that move in relation to the barrel (and in more than one plane), and only 50yds range? I doubt the dies are going to make any difference. How you use them, might....

Some folks here are heavily into what I call extreme precision reloading. They measure everything down to the nth degree, using specialized tools to do so. Their advice is well meant, and accurate for what they do, wringing the ultimate precision from target class rifles. A lot of the advice is totally irrelevant to other types of firearms and loading for them.

Put another way, the things that make a wining Formula One race car don't matter that much to those of us driving a pick up truck on a dirt road...

I'm not into high end dies, don't have any guns that can utilize more precision than what regular dies produce. I've been reloading for 50 years, I don't compete in matches, getting the very smallest groups possible isn't my main focus, My shooting recreational and sport hunting, so perhaps my standards are lower than some folks. I require my ammo to shoot reliably and hit my targets repeatably well enough so I can be certain that when I miss (and I do, sometimes, ) the reason was ME, not the gun or the ammo.

I get this from standard dies, (any brand) and doing it the way I've always done it. I don't use collet dies or universal crimpers and my "universal decapper" is a LEE product, the hand tool with a decapping punch that you wack with a hammer. Works great.

All the LEE hand tools I've used have been great, its their presses and dies I don't much care for, but that's just me and no reason for you not to use LEE stuff if you like it.

 

[Unclenick]

It's not simple. I'll offer up a bit of a defense of Lee dies. Lee does manufacture and finish in a manner intended to hold costs down. This is because Richard Lee's philosophy was that many people reload to save money, and if reloading equipment cost makes the payback time long, fewer people will try it. What everyone agrees with is that Lee has come up with a number of technical innovations over the years that nobody else has. What's ironic is that some of those innovations are the very things that get criticized. They don't suit everybody.

Take Nathan's objections, for example, as they are common complaints about Lee. The one-piece decapping rod design is to address the fact standard replaceable pin designs often have their pin chucks get loose, so the pin shifts out of alignment with the centerline and touches down to the side of the flash hole and then breaks as the case comes up into the die. A fixed pin won't get out of alignment, so Lee decided to make that pin strong and fixed in the decapping stem rod. But then, suppose you get a case with an obstructed flash hole or a flash hole that is way off-center. Then the pin hits the obstruction or brass instead of the hole anyway. Then how do you protect it from breaking? Lee's answer was to hold the rod with a collet that lets the rod slip up in the die before breaking the pin.

The almost chewy-soft aluminum adjustment plugs are designed to break away before excessive upward press pressure can damage the rest of the die. The seater stems in Lee's dead-length seating dies are intended to float against the bottom of that plug to self-align with the bullet to reduce finished round concentricity, a variation of which is also used in the Redding Competition Seating Die, where it works quite well.

MarkVII echoes a common complaint about another Lee innovation: the rubber O-ring lock rings. As provided, they do have the drawback that they have to be reset whenever you change out the die. But the idea comes from practices recommended by match shooters in the '80s and '90s and sometimes more recently. John Feamster, for example, said he sandwiched a rubber O-ring between the press and the lock rings on his RCBS dies so they had a little angular float to allow them to self-align with the brass, which he said improved accuracy by improving cartridge concentricity. As long as you don't tighten the Lee ring into hard contact with the die, it provides that function.

Does everyone like those innovations? Clearly not, or you wouldn't hear the criticisms of them. They do sometimes require some extra attention. The decapping rod collets often need to be tightened with a pair of wrenches before they stop slipping too easily. You can also put a registration mark on the rod where it emerges from the collet on top so you can see if it slips up and tap it back down with a plastic or brass hammer if it does.

The soft aluminum plug threads can sometimes loosen. Just put the plug's threads between the jaws of your vice and squash the tops of the threads just slightly flat in one place and try it in the die again. Repeat until you have upset the threads enough to stay put.

The Lee seating stems need lubrication between the top end of them and the bottom of the aluminum plug to slide and self-align well. It's a good application for dry lube, so your die doesn't get gummy.

The bullet tip recess in Lee seating stems often are bored a bit too shallow for higher BC bullets, and those bullets can reach the bottom of the recess with their tips instead contact being made somewhere on the ogive of the bullet. With the often uneven hollow point match bullet tips, this can cause inconsistent seating depth. But Lee can provide a VLD-shaped one, or you can drill out the bottom of the taper in the one you have to prevent contact with the very tip of the bullet.

Despite their crude and easy-to-rust outside finish, the bore of a Lee steel rifle sizing die remains the only one on the market (I believe) that is honed to its final size, making their cross-sections essentially perfectly round. With other brands, you occasionally find a slightly oval cross-section.

 

[ghbucky]

Good stuff, Unclenick. Lots of great tips in that post.
Thanks.

 

[mikejonestkd]

All of my straight walled pistol dies are Lee. They work just fine

 

[RoyceP]

All of my straight walled pistol dies are Lee. They work just fine

Like

 

[ghbucky]

Some folks here are heavily into what I call extreme precision reloading. They measure everything down to the nth degree, using specialized tools to do so. Their advice is well meant, and accurate for what they do, wringing the ultimate precision from target class rifles. A lot of the advice is totally irrelevant to other types of firearms and loading for them.

Put another way, the things that make a wining Formula One race car don't matter that much to those of us driving a pick up truck on a dirt road...

Speaking strictly for myself, reloading seems to allow me to scratch an itch I don't have an outlet for anywhere else.

My profession is in the conceptual world of computers and networks, so I don't really DO anything with my hands other than type on a keyboard.

I have no end of respect for people who build things with their hands. Carpenters, plumbers, machinists.. these are professions that make things work, and I admire that.

Even though I know that trying to get the powder load consistent to .01 grain in my pistol loads won't make the steel plates fall any better, I can't help myself. I still reach for it.

I think it is because it is the one place where I can chase the kind of precision that I know people who hold professions I admire live in. So it is a bit of vicarious silliness. I still can't help it

 

[akinswi]

Is Dillions 9mm die really that long on backlog?? Just use your Lee carbide dies be done with it.

But def get the dillion press you cry once but will be happy with it. I didnt get the 750 because full blown progressive reloading is too expensive for me. I got the 550RL.

Buy extra tool heads. You will thank me later

 

[jetinteriorguy]

It's not simple. I'll offer up a bit of a defense of Lee dies. Lee does manufacture and finish in a manner intended to hold costs down. This is because Richard Lee's philosophy was that many people reload to save money, and if reloading equipment cost makes the payback time long, fewer people will try it. What everyone agrees with is that Lee has come up with a number of technical innovations over the years that nobody else has. What's ironic is that some of those innovations are the very things that get criticized. They don't suit everybody.

Take Nathan's objections, for example, as they are common complaints about Lee. The one-piece decapping rod design is to address the fact standard replaceable pin designs often have their pin chucks get loose, so the pin shifts out of alignment with the centerline and touches down to the side of the flash hole and then breaks as the case comes up into the die. A fixed pin won't get out of alignment, so Lee decided to make that pin strong and fixed in the decapping stem rod. But then, suppose you get a case with an obstructed flash hole or a flash hole that is way off-center. Then the pin hits the obstruction or brass instead of the hole anyway. Then how do you protect it from breaking? Lee's answer was to hold the rod with a collet that lets the rod slip up in the die before breaking the pin.

The almost chewy-soft aluminum adjustment plugs are designed to break away before excessive upward press pressure can damage the rest of the die. The seater stems in Lee's dead-length seating dies are intended to float against the bottom of that plug to self-align with the bullet to reduce finished round concentricity, a variation of which is also used in the Redding Competition Seating Die, where it works quite well.

MarkVII echoes a common complaint about another Lee innovation: the rubber O-ring lock rings. As provided, they do have the drawback that they have to be reset whenever you change out the die. But the idea comes from practices recommended by match shooters in the '80s and '90s and sometimes more recently. John Feamster, for example, said he sandwiched a rubber O-ring between the press and the lock rings on his RCBS dies so they had a little angular float to allow them to self-align with the brass, which he said improved accuracy by improving cartridge concentricity. As long as you don't tighten the Lee ring into hard contact with the die, it provides that function.

Does everyone like those innovations? Clearly not, or you wouldn't hear the criticisms of them. They do sometimes require some extra attention. The decapping rod collets often need to be tightened with a pair of wrenches before they stop slipping too easily. You can also put a registration mark on the rod where it emerges from the collet on top so you can see if it slips up and tap it back down with a plastic or brass hammer if it does.

The soft aluminum plug threads can sometimes loosen. Just put the plug's threads between the jaws of your vice and squash the tops of the threads just slightly flat in one place and try it in the die again. Repeat until you have upset the threads enough to stay put.

The Lee seating stems need lubrication between the top end of them and the bottom of the aluminum plug to slide and self-align well. It's a good application for dry lube, so your die doesn't get gummy.

The bullet tip recess in Lee seating stems often are bored a bit too shallow for higher BC bullets, and those bullets can reach the bottom of the recess with their tips instead contact being made somewhere on the ogive of the bullet. With the often uneven hollow point match bullet tips, this can cause inconsistent seating depth. But Lee can provide a VLD-shaped one, or you can drill out the bottom of the taper in the one you have to prevent contact with the very tip of the bullet.

Despite their crude and easy-to-rust outside finish, the bore of a Lee steel rifle sizing die remains the only one on the market (I believe) that is honed to its final size, making their cross-sections essentially perfectly round. With other brands, you occasionally find a slightly oval cross-section.

Great tips here UN. I use different dies for various functions for reasons specific to their design, not necessarily because of better quality than Lee dies.