DHS tests inquiry.

[iMagUdspEllr]

*Disclaimer* This is not a thread for biased individuals. I do not claim Glock or HK to be superior to each other. I only want to know if X pistol performs better than Y pistol in Z category... or not. */Disclaimer*

I'm currently having a rather heated discussion with someone concerning Glock vs HK.

He claims that because in the Department of Homeland Security tests HK and SIG were selected over Glock that Glock is an inferior platform. He sent me this article:

==============================================
DHS Press Release
Department Of Homeland Security Awards Handgun Contracts

Release Date: 08/24/04 00:00:00

For Immediate Release
Press Office
Contact 202-282-8010
August 24, 2004

The U.S. Department of Homeland Security announced the award of two contracts today for handguns for all organizational elements within the department, including U.S. Immigration and Customs Enforcement, U.S. Customs and Border Protection, the Transportation Security Administration, the U.S. Coast Guard and the Federal Law Enforcement Training Center.

SIGARMS Incorporated and Heckler & Koch, Incorporated each received a contract award with a maximum quantity of 65,000 pistols that may be purchased over the next five years. SIGARMS Incorporated, a small business located in Exeter, New Hampshire, received a $23.7 million contract for 9 x 19 mm and .40 caliber pistols. Heckler & Koch, a large business located in Sterling, Virginia, received a $26.2 million contract for 9 x 19 mm, .40, and .357 caliber pistols.

The two contracts will enable DHS personnel to acquire handguns in three popular law enforcement calibers and a variety of sizes. These contracts represent the results of the department's Strategic Sourcing Program that is designed to optimize cross-departmental acquisitions through collaboration of agency technical and acquisition experts. The Weapons and Ammunition Commodity Council, part of the strategic sourcing program, identifies and consolidates emerging firearms and ammunition requirements for all Homeland Security components. As part of this effort, U.S. Immigration and Customs Enforcement (ICE) released a Request for Proposals in February 2004 for the procurement of handguns. The ICE National Firearms and Tactical Training Unit led the ensuing evaluation.

"This type of multiple contract award will provide the government the flexibility it needs to enable the DHS entities to address their diverse operational missions, while still maximizing logistical efficiencies found through standardization," said Thomas Trotto, Director of the ICE National Firearms and Tactical Training Unit.

The technical evaluation of the proposals included a comprehensive handgun test protocol involving a rigorous battery of environmental, reliability, durability, and other tests. Approximately three million rounds of ammunition were fired through 690 handguns of 46 different models during the testing, which took almost four months to complete. Aside from the actual live firing, additional testing was conducted through laboratory analysis and armory inspections. In all, each model was evaluated against more than 50 characteristics before arriving at a technical rating. This data was used in conjunction with past performance and pricing information to select the winning contractors.

The Homeland Security Weapons and Ammunition Commodity Council continues to analyze the department's requirements for weapons, ammunition, and other officer safety products to identify additional strategic sourcing opportunities.
=============================================


I read the article and stated to him that the article doesn't show why Glock wasn't selected over HK or SIG. It doesn't show any data. It doesn't indicate that Glock failed any tests, only that extensive testing was performed. I'm really trying not to be a "fan boy" but it is really annoying when someone claims something to be true on zero evidence. For all we know all of the weapons in the test performed the same and they just thought HKs and SIGs were prettier.

Does anyone know how many tests Glock failed or how many stoppages Glock had? I really want to know. I would like to purchase an HK or a SIG if they really are better. But it is kinda hard to justify spending double the price on an HK or a SIG when they perform the same as a Glock (that is, to my limited knowledge thus far).

 

[azredhawk44]

#1 - It's DHS. Who cares?
#2 - It's DHS. Even if you care what DHS thinks, how often are they actually right?
#3 - How many PD's and other agencies currently issue Glocks?
#4 - How often have you heard of a Glock being a cited source of failure in law enforcement operations?
#5 - How many other perfectly wonderful guns out there haven't won the afore-mentioned DHS contract? Beretta, Glock, FN, Springfield, Smith M&P, etc. Are they now worth less in your esteem because of some dotguv bureaucratic black hole said HK and Sig are supposedly better?

Leave it be, is my suggestion.

 

[iMagUdspEllr]

That is pretty much what I wanted to hear. But, I am interested in the actual data collected in that test. It would be interesting to see.

 

[johnbt]

I think it would be useful infomation if you're buying a gun from that year - 2004.

 

[Shadi Khalil]

This reminds me of a heated debate a friend and I got into the other night. What's wetter, water from a hose or rain.... Seriously, it's the dhs, they probably chose which ever gun was easier for them not to lose.

 

[Erik]

Generally, gov't firearms contracts are bid every 5 years. Most are bid through the DOJ and DHS, with other agencies piggy-backing off of them. Regardless, the process goes something like this: Specs are announced, bids and examples submitted, items are tested (the FBI and ICE both have ISO 9000-something rated labs; the only two), feedback solicited ( bias can creep in here; some agencies make it known who the winner will be, as far as they are concerned), items are retested (a narrower field, often subcontracted to an independent ISO 9000-something rated lab), contracts are negotiated (positions in the ratings have been known to change due to the paperwork), and a "winner" declared. Typically rumor and speculation concerning why certain decisions are made abound; usually propagated by folks whose favorite option was not decided on; and sometimes they have merit.

The main DOJ contract is presently fulfilled by Glock.
The main DHS contracts are presently fulfilled by Sig and HK.
Main, as in there are others. Some contracts overlap. Some remnants of pistols from old contract still exist in the field for both entities. Are they suddenly inferior? No. What usually pulls them from the field has more to do with factory and armory support than function of the given pistol.

And... that's about it.

"He claims that because in the Department of Homeland Security tests HK and SIG were selected over Glock that Glock is an inferior platform."

He is mistaken.

Best - E

 

[9x19]

I've posted this before, it's the short version of what Walt Rauch wrote about the FBI's tests of the Glock (which they now issue to all new agents):

When the FBI tested the Glock models 22 and 23, they did abuse testing, a parts interchangeability test, exposure tests, an obstructed bore test, a Field Suitability Evaluation plus accuracy and endurance tests. In addition, all pistols had to have a service life of 10,000 rounds.

Glock’s 22 and 23 met or exceeded all requirements.

The Field Suitability Evaluation used agents of different size, height, weight, and sex who put 250 rounds thru three of each model pistol. This included a 30 round bullseye course, then 2 10 round strings from the holster at the FBI Q target from 10 yards, then fired two more 10 round strings from the ready position. They also fired five 10 round strings from ten yards as fast as they could fire and reload. Another two 10 round strings were fired from prone at Q targets 50 yards away, Finally, they shot two 50 round FBI qualification courses. FBI gunsmiths also fired the pistols from bench and Ransom rests for accuracy.

Abuse tests included: They field stripped three guns, and swapped parts among them, then fired 20 rounds from each without failure. Two of the pistols were put into a freezer to –20F for one hour, then immediately withdrawn and fired, next they went in an oven at 120F for one hour and immediately withdrawn and fired. With the pistols containing primed cartridges in their chamber, and dummy rounds in the mags, they were next dropped, twice at each orientation, onto concrete from a height of four feet: muzzle down, muzzle up, on their right side, on their left side, sights down, and squarely on the butt. Immediately following this, the cases were examined for primer indents then the pistols were fired with 20 rounds to ensure proper functioning.

The guns, loaded again with primed cartridges in their chambers, and dummy rounds in the mags, were tossed from a height of four feet, to a distance of 15 feet onto concrete, landing twice each on their right and left sides. The guns could not fire and the magazines had to stay in place. Immediately following this, the cases were examined for primer indents then the pistols were fired with 20 rounds to ensure proper functioning. Two magazines, loaded with dummy ammo were also dropped, twice at each orientation, onto concrete from a height of four feet onto their base plates and onto their feed lips. They could not lose a round and were then tested by firing 10 rounds each without a malfunction.

They also dunked them in salt water for 5 minutes, pulled them out, shook them for 15 seconds, rinsed them with clear water and let them sit for 24 hours then fired 20 rounds without malfunction (shrug). One of the three guns was cleaned, lubed and loaded then put in a box containing half play sand and half road sand, and covered up. It was removed shaken out and fired until empty. The last abuse test had a bullet lodged in the barrel, one inch in front of the chamber. Then one round of service ammunition was fired with the obstruction in place. The pistol could not rupture or fragment the frame slide or barrel. As an added test five more rounds were fired after the first round cleared the barrel obstruction.

The endurance test meant firing 10,000 rounds thru each of the six pistols. No major parts replacements were allowed, including magazines, and the malfunction rate could not be greater than 1 in 2000 rounds. The pistols never missed a beat, with zero malfunctions in 60,000 rounds. They were then fired with another 10,000 rounds, for a total of 20,000 rounds each, and a grand total of 120,000 rounds (that’s 145 five gallon buckets of empty brass). One model 22 needed a new trigger bar after 17,131 rounds and another 22 needed a trigger bar after 19,494 rounds. The other model 22 and all three model 23s made it thru all 20,000 rounds without a failure. Following the endurance tests, the pistols were once again tested for accuracy and passed (4” at 25 yards with a variety of ammo from 155 to 180 grain bullet weights).

 

[BigJimP]

Regardless of what the govt did or didn't do in their tests ....and how they justified awarding their contracts ....it comes down to what fits your hand the best, what trigger you like the best and the fit and finish you like the best...

For the most part - when you're talking about H&K, Sig, S&W, Glock ( or Beretta which wasn't mentioned ) - none of them are making bad guns ...but they're very different ( especially in grip angles and how the trigger feels in firing and in reset ).

Of all of the options you've listed - I like the Sig 226 / in all stainless / in either 9mm or .40S&W and I have one of each. Mine both have the standard Sig DA/SA triggers. I've fired the DAK trigger - and I don't care for it. I think Sig makes a very strong gun / very good fit and finish and if you want a double stack gun in DA/SA its my favorite.

 

[obiwan1]

IIRC the probable reason that Glock didn't get the contract is that one of their test guns had a catastrophic failure. All other samples were withdrawn from the competition. The area of failure was subsequently beefed up with a couple of grams of extra steel.
Those tests were done by Border Patrol/INS at their Altoona facility. IIRC the load used was 155gr/1195fps.

 

[Erik]

I'd characterize that information as... misinformation. Kind of like the popularly believed information (i.e. the agent's couldn't handle the 10mm so they downgraded) concerning the FBI's adoption of the .40 S&W... misinformation.

 

[KyJim]

I'd characterize that information as... misinformation.

Which information is that? The info about the FBI torture tests?

 

[booker_t]

Seriously, DHS?

Let's look at their senior leadership through the years:

2003-2005: Tom Ridge: Infantry SSG in Viet Nam, lawyer, Pennsylvania Representative. In addition to various board positions, he is also founder/CEO of Ridge Global, a security consulting firm.

2005-2009: Michael Chertoff: Judge and Assistant US Attorney General. After leaving DHS, founder/CEO of Chertoff Group, a risk management and security consulting firm.

2009-Present: Janet Napolitano: Attorney (represented Anita Hill in her sexual harassment case), Governor of Arizona.

Notice, aside from Mr. Ridge's military service, none of them have any experience in large scale security operations, investigations, data management, anything of that sort, yet when they leave DHS they start security consulting firms. Even if these presumably intelligent people were able to run DHS effectively (the record has shown they really haven't), who in DHS is using a handgun under adverse conditions? How many rounds have actually been fired by DHS LEOs since 2003 in an operational setting? Who at DHS wrote the requirements documents, and who performed the testing, and then recorded and analyzed the data? And to what criteria?

Sometimes, it isn't worth a company to submit for a contract where the requirements aren't written in a way that they believe they will win, regardless of how good their product is. Likewise, there are some in government who wish to spread contracts around, not in a socialist mindset, but from a logistics mindset. If every LE organization exclusively used Glocks, and for some reason Glock stopped production, the supply of firearms and replacement parts would dry up very quickly. Utilizing multiple supply streams and vendors mitigates that risk.

Sorry, I'll take testing performed by Army, USMC, DEA and FBI over any rubbish the DHS pumps out every day of the week and twice on Sunday.

Nothing against HK or Sig, as they are fine pistols.

 

[Hoss Fly]

Sorry, I'll take testing performed by Army, USMC, DEA and FBI over any rubbish the DHS pumps out every day of the week and twice on Sunday.

Agree-
Mabe a microwave or toaster oven but a gun

 

[orionengnr]

Notice, aside from Mr. Ridge's military service, none of them have any experience in large scale security operations, investigations, data management, anything of that sort, yet when they leave DHS they start security consulting firms. Even if these presumably intelligent people were able to run DHS effectively (the record has shown they really haven't), who in DHS is using a handgun under adverse conditions?

Bingo. Government contracts at any level from city to Federal are based not on merit, but on (at best) price structure and (at worst) "nod nod wink wink". That is being generous here. Actually "at worst" is more like "kickback" or "outright bribery".

Unfortunately, that is where we are these days. My local dogcatcher has demonstrated (barely) more integrity than Janet Napolitano, and that doesn't take a whole lot of effort.

 

[booker_t]

orion; Indeed. The "cost - schedule - performance" tradeoff always rears its head.

 

[Uncle Malice]

Politics aside, glocks are fine handguns. I love them for their simplicity and ease of customization and parts selection. I like my g19 rtf a lot.

With that said, I am a very big fan of both hk and sig pistols. I don't think that there is any question that there is more craftsmanship in these weapons. I have no problem paying the higher prices that these guns command.

The hk p30 and sig p229 e2 are the two most ergonomically comfortable guns I have held to date. If you don't think they deserve the higher cost for being more ergonomic and better looking, don't buy them. The glock may not be as pretty, but leaves nothing to be desired in terms of reliability.


If your friend buys his guns based on the decisions of government agencies, direct him to the tests from just a couple months ago where the fbi awarded contacts to glock and smith & wesson, after disqualifying sig sauer.

 

[ClydeFrog]

Glocks, HKs, SIG-Sauers; ICE-FBI: USSOCOM, CAG/ISA/etc...

To me, the complaints or issues with the T&Es or selection trials of duty pistols, seems to be somewhat limited.
If DHS or any of the US DoJ agencies(USMS, FBI, ATF etc) test or choose a HK/LEM, a SIG/DAK or a S&W/MP series over a Glock then so be it.
The Glock line was very popular through the 1990s and most of the 2000s but in 2010, newer designs may be picked over the Glock 17/22.
To my limited knowledge, the Glock 21 .45acp pistol is in use with the DoD's CAG(Combat Applications Group) more than the 1911a1 models. The HK45compact & Mark 23 .45acp are issued too by the USSOCOM(Special Operations Command) but the SIG P228s & 1911a1 .45acp models still see a lot of service use in Southwest Asia(Iraq-Afganistan).
I'd honestly want a HK P2000 LEM type duty pistol in .357sig or .40S&W. A SIG Sauer P229R DAK or a S&W Military and Police .40 or .357sig would be fine too but not my first choice.

CF

 

[fishluv]

Someone will get a high profile job at one of the manufacturers after they "pursue other opportunities".

it happened with Baretta..

DHS does nothing correctly..trust me I work for em

 

[booker_t]

Here's an operationally-accurate "torture test" that I'd rather see.. simulate some schlump at DHS who didn't really want to work for them but had few other options, he's been handed a service pistol and does absolute minimum maintenance and shooting. Just enough shooting to qualify once a year or however often it's required. He cleans it maybe once every six months, nothing more than a field strip, but he's not really good at cleaning it, so it's all gunked up with clothing lint, bits of leather from the holster, and is never properly lubricated. It's been cycled through summer and winter, some exposure to humid, salty air (like in Miami), surface rust. Left in the car a few times each year to bake and freeze. Dropped more than once, left in a pile of dirty laundry more than one weekend. The primary mag has been taken out and the first round re-chambered so many times that the bullet and case throat look like chopped liver.

Let it go through that for 15+ years and then let's measure first-shot, cold barrel, just the way it would be used that one time in the guy's career when he actually needs to use lethal force.

 

[Uncle Malice]

booer_t

In that case, let's just give them all Sigmas.