Denver shooting: How, Why, What Now?

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Morgan

New member
Well, I'm SOOOOO glad Owens is Governor now, having barely won in last year's elections. He seems to be giving a voice of reason to the GUN GUN GUN clamor, and giving me hope that the current pro-gun bills in consideration will still pass.

I agree with the bent Owens is taking, that the parents, teachers, and friends of the youths involved probably should have been more proactive.

Sometimes, however, people just go wacko - we really cannot blame anyone but the person pulling the trigger. I hope nobody forgets that in the coming weeks.

My heart goes out to the victims and their friends and families, including the friends and families of the perpetrators. My congratulations to the police who apparently handled a VERY tough situation as well as possible.

I only hope this revives realistic discussion of allowing law-abiding citizens to carry concealed firearms anywhere, including schools, sports events, etc.

Comments?
 
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Rob Pincus

New member
I hope your initial impession is right, Morgan..

Meanwhile, Pete Williams of NBC just started the Anti-Gun ball rolling...
He said that "experts" believe things like this hqppen because young people are enamored with guns.. and guns are getting easier to get.

Personally, I'm not exaclty sure what the hell he is talking about.....


I am always curious about the number, type and source of the weapons used....

I'm willing to bet that at least one fo these kids will have guns that came from a family member.

The "best" case scenario is that the guns were stolen from other than family memebrs (which the media never seems to consider really stealing...), but that is a long shot.

Sounds like they had at least one shotgun, and a semi-auto handgun.

I'm sure this will be the topic of conversation next week at the NRA show.. In Denver...

Clinton is calling for America to "wake up" to the size of the challenge of finding a way to prevent this in the future.

He did acknowledge that we need to recognize the warning signs that these shooters send out.

BINGO.. The last question was "Waht should people be "waking up" to?".. He said that we needed to acknowledge that these children have access to guns and other weapons....


[This message has been edited by Rob (edited April 20, 1999).]
 
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Grayfox

New member
Several points to discuss, so bear with me.

In slick's speach he stated that he has instructed the Attorney General and Dept of Education to "assist" with the investigation. In other words, the feds are probably going to take over the investigation. Why? Because of the media attention they can get. That's why.


Why do these school shooting keep happening? Partly because of the media circus it spawns. This story will be reported, analyzed,and rehashed for months to come. We've been watching it live all afternoon, its the only story on the evening news all over the country and even though the tragedy is only hours old, NBC's Dateline has already done a one hour special on it. By the time its over, every tiny detail of how and why will be told. And somewhere out there could be some poor, lonely, sick kid watching all this and thinking "If only people would pay that much attention to me." Think about it.

Why do these things happen? These are desperate acts commited by lost and lonley kids who feel unwanted, unworthy and unloved. So far the evedience has shown that people knew something was wrong for some time. Why didn't someone speak up? Where are the parents, the teachers and friends who might have done something to help these kids?
Don't get me wrong, I'm not trying to shift the blame. These boys pulled the triggers and made the bombs. They are fully responsible for what they have done. They have paid for their crimes with their lives and rightly so.
But, the question remains, could this have been avoided and could these boys have been helped? Now, only God knows the answer to that one.
 
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Tom B

New member
Clinton was somewhat confused at the time because grenades had been mentioned. Once he gets his act (and speechwriters) together he will come down on guns like a ton of bricks. I love it when he talks about the MORALITY issues. Notice how he looks away from the camera.
 
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longhair

New member
saw this morning on msnbc that the boys were
big fans of adolph hitler. the way i understand it, yesterday was hitler's birthday. question: do parents not teach their children anything these days? do they not teach what is right and what is wrong? i think they're so worried about making the almighty green back, that they don't pay any attention to their children. parents used to raise children, which means, spending time w/ them, teaching them, nurture them, like you would a garden or a plant! now days i feel they're just growing them, like weeds. the seed is planted & they just grow on their on!
jmo!

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fiat justitia
 
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Rob Pincus

New member
I would really like to see the parents pay for this one. At least the kid who had "bomb making materials" (if they turn out to be identifiably so to anyone other than an OSS Operative..) in his house.

My wife and I are at opposite ends of the rope on this.. she says that they have lost their children and been punished enough.. I say they lost their kids through their own negligence.
 
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Racegun

New member
The parents are at fault all the way. Where were they when all the plans were being made by those cretians?
 
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HS

New member
Best wishes & prayers to the Families of the victims & the "survivors".


A movie starring Leonardo Di Caprio in which he wears a Long Black Trenchcoat & daydreams about wasting his fellow students is being blamed as the Instigator for the killing spree.

Hopefully they'll "blame" MGM and NOT the guns?

BTW, on the radio today a representitive from Gun Control Australia came on calling for tighter control of Handgun ownership here.


THIS PERSON WAS AN AMERICAN !!!



First you send us Mormons, NOW this JERK !!!

Thanks, grrrrr :(

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"The Gun from Down Under !"
 
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David B

New member
I encountered this posting on the message board for this topic on the Arizona Republic Newspaper's web site.

I believe it should be included here as a counterpoint to some of the arguments that this is "the parent's fault". I do not believe it is fair to asses whether the parent's are guily until we have more information about these kids and their parents. Then we can make an informed judgment.

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from Dr. Ricardo V. Garres

"Through the years I have read so many tales blaming parents for their children problems.

When I corrected my son I had to fight against.. society. For instance, I set curfew time to my fiteen
year old at 10:00 PM in summer, earlier in winter. He challenged and arrived home at 11:00 PM. I
did not open the door and told him "You are going to sleep outside (maybe with some friend)".
What did he do? To stand by a traffic light.. a policeman brought him over, bang at my door with so
much holly righteousness and demanded to know the reason why I did not let him in.. you know,
every guy with a batch and a gun is dangerous.. When I informed him of my home rrules he said that
"unfortunately, it is the law" and I was obliged to let him in.. I told him that he and society were
producing vagrants and criminals.. He said he was sorry.. of course, he did not mean it at the
beginning. However, when that happen many times... he really menat it.

Today, at 27, my son is a vagrant, lives on the streets, have been arrested a number of times por
petty things.. My daughter is in college about finishing her BS and going to medical school.

So, it is not the parents, is society and that social attitude that translates into laws. It is also
discrimination that pervades laws, schools, law enforcement (Diallo in New York).. and so on.

Could it be that our iniquities are catchin up with us? Maybe we need a period of atonement,
become blind and love each otehr as a brother and sister without distinction of colors.. nationalities,
physical problems.. and help the disadvantaged instead of picking on them.

This is a terrible tragedy! "
 
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Mike Spight

New member
After getting home from the office, I called my daughter in Tampa (she's a beautiful 17 year old young lady, Senior year in HS, lives w/my ex, will go to college in RI this fall) just to tell her that I loved her. We talked for about half an hour. What really hurts is the fact that she fully acknowledges the fact that this could have happened in her school (one of the largest in Hillsborough County with a mostly "preppie" student body, but with it's share of "strange" kids as well).
Some have suggested that this might be a good time to buy ammo and/or more guns and that's certainly a good idea. A better idea is to work your state and federal legislators and to send $ to the NRA, GOA, 2d Amendment Foundation or other effective RKBA organization of your choice. They are now going to be expending $ at a tremendous rate to fight the cultural PSYOP war that is going to explode following this tragedy. Bottom line, call politicians and SEND MONEY!!
 
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Jim V

New member
I wonder why the students and teachers knew of the Trench Coat Mafia and their threats but the school administration did NOT. They did not know about a group that wore black trench coats, wore face paint and made numerous threats to kill people because "the world will end in 2000" bs they spouted?

The administration knew and did not give a flying bad word about it. A not our problem mentality or a "If we say anything about them we will get sued." mentality.
 
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DC

Moderator Emeritus
Jim...

This is the society that we've allowed to exist.
"For the children"...you have obvious misfit kids who make threats, and rather than intervene they let it go so as to not damage self-esteem. You can't whack a kid for doing wrong, you can't enforce home rules (as the letter above)...all this falls into child abuse and endangerment. So these kids join up with like-minded kids....you can't bust up such a group because that interfers with "socialization" and enforces conformation...the antipathy to our beloved and holy "diversity". So we get a crop of virulent weeds and can't do anything about it.

Look, we all know exactly where the fault lies but those responsible will never pay ...they will make us pay.

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"Quis custodiet ipsos custodes"
 
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Mike Spight

New member
DC: One point, "they" will TRY to make us pay...we don't have to let them...never forget that the best defense is a good offense.
 
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Mike Spight

New member
HS: Our apologies for our fellow countryman shooting off his mouth in your country. There is absolutely nothing more infuriating that a foreigner who has the audacity to critcize the politics, policies, customs, etc of your nation while sucking up O2 on YOUR GROUND! It's something that I did not do in all my years of living abroad. Hopefully, he'll make the same mistake in a pub and one of your people will deck his ass.
Regards, Mike
 
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Karanas

New member
In regards to what the school officials "should have known", there are reports now that members of this "trenchcoat mafia" produced a video in their SCHOOL video class concerning their weapons.
Did the instructor of that class ever question their subject matter or wonder what underage students were doing making a film about firearms? Especially when you consider the philosophy this group supposedly espoused.
 
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Jim V

New member
My statement about the administration not knowing about the Trench Coat Mafia was made after reading a statement from the school's Principal, basically he said we did not know about these guys and you can't expect us to keep track of everybody in the school.

Of course they knew about the little bastards, they were more worried about getting sued for saying anything than they were about the possibility of something happening. The statement was a typical CYA.

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Ne Conjuge Nobiscum
 
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Mal H

Staff
Janet Reno was just interviewed live on CNN concerning what to do to prevent these things. I never dreamed I would say this, but she was very level headed about it and had some very appropriate statements. I don't take dictation so I can't give her entire statement but in essence it was, "We all have to recognize the danger signs in our children that would lead them to do these things." ... "Children should not have guns until they have been taught to use them safely and lawfully." [amen] ... "Gun legislation is not the answer, we must use common sense." All in all she was right on in my opinion. I hope she has some influence on WJC so he won't go off half cocked.
 
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El Chimango Pete

New member
That schools would have to be seen as 'communities in a hostile environment' is very sad indeed. There have been so many different threads on this horror that I thought it best to post this link here rather than start a new one: Israel's answer to school shootings, I think the author, Dr David Schiller makes some very valid points.

www.goa-texas.org/school-2.htm

Peter J. Knight (aka "El Chimango Pete")
 
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bruels

New member
Longhair posted:

saw this morning on msnbc that the boys were big fans of adolph hitler. the way i understand it, yesterday was hitler's birthday. question: do parents not teach their children anything these days? do they not teach what is right and what is wrong?

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I think to teach right from wrong, one must have a historical perspective. I really doubt young parents have any idea how evil Hitler was. So, when their youngsters run around admiring the Nazis, it's just considered a "phase" they're going through.

I am frankly astounded how ignorant young people are today about the world, geopolitics, political systems and philosophies, and the struggles our parents and forefathers had to face to give us the country we have today.

A friend on another list, Vietnam veteran, said he just wished once we would be invaded by a hostile power so today's electorate would realize just how good we have it today. Here we are warring against another nation and there is no gas rationing, no food rationing, no collection of scrap aluminum to build fighter planes, etc. We're just so spoiled.


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Bruce Stanton
 
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