Dem wild 'n' wacky womyn......

[Charmedlyfe]

I had been registered over at MIZZMAGAZINE for quite some time. Always thought that getting both views on issues involving women was a good idea. I just sent their webmistress an e-mail to delete my account. Why? heh....


I kinda got ticked over the general idea that only 'womym' (is the plural 'womyns?) could understand domestic violence. I was rather disgusted with how they perceived the dynamic. I started another thread about it in politics, and got jumped on. My question is this: can anyone seriously (really) explain to me how these 'empowered' persons can believe that female victims should not be at all responsible for their own safety? How can they believe that men should discuss this issue with the male aggressors and act to 'end the violence' while believing that the female victims should not be expected to do anything for their own safety, or attempt to change the victim mindset in any way. The 'womyns' believe that socialization as caretakers somehow trumps the (defective and criminal) socialization of the abusive men as aggressors. Both are learned behaviors that are harmful to the self/others, and both need to be addressed.

Am I missing something critical? Is it wrong for me to believe that the 'victim mindset' and behaviour must be changed before the problem can be eliminated? I don't believe that the women are responsible for causing violence and abuse, but is it wrong to believe that we should support and encourage women to not be victims, to break the behaviour patterns? I equate the problem to drug abuse. Only after the subject (junkie or victim) recognizes a problem and is willing to accept help can anything meaningful be done to help them.

Please, serious comments only.

 

[Zundfolge]

Feminism is not about "empowering" women...it's about hating men (it's basically sexism) it's also about growing liberalism, academia and empowering Democrats .


If you want to talk to some feminists who don't have their heads up their...

go here --> http://www.ifeminists.com

 

[nualle]

I'll take a stab at this, but I'm no expert...

(and personally, I'm pretty disgusted by the noise-to-signal ratio over there, too, FWIW.)

Is it wrong for me to believe that the 'victim mindset' and behaviour must be changed before the problem can be eliminated? I don't believe that the women are responsible for causing violence and abuse, but is it wrong to believe that we should support and encourage women to not be victims, to break the behaviour patterns?

There is a fine line between demanding (or merely expecting) personal responsibility and blaming the victim. That line is not objectively defined -- it can only be subjectively perceived. They are entirely correct that the primary issue is the offender's. But I also agree with you that they can't control the offender's actions but they can control their own in such a way as to make themselves unattractive targets.

I think that many of the participants on the Ms. boards are there because they have such keen personal feelings of being oppressed that they take umbrage at any suggestion that someone else feels he can tell them what they must do (for themselves or otherwise). So they see a statement that evokes some nasty experience in their past and look no further. It's not a rational way to be in the world, but it's common enough, there and elsewhere.

Personally, I think giving up one's freedoms is a viable choice. I refuse to do it and I refuse to lead others who themselves choose to do it. But I recognize my absolute inability to stop them doing it if they choose to. They will, unfortunately, always find tyrants to lead them.

I equate the problem to drug abuse. Only after the subject (junkie or victim) recognizes a problem and is willing to accept help can anything meaningful be done to help them.

I can see how this analogy applies, but I think it is not fully apt and it is almost custom-designed to offend Ms-ers. Essentially, drug addiction is a medical illness. For the analogy to be fully apt, being a "caretaker feminine" type would also have to be pathological -- an illness to be cured. I agree with you that being a caretaker does not preclude the willingness to deal with personal protection issues. (For me, it would probably require it, on the basis that I can care for no one if I'm dead or in need of rescue myself.)
Here again you run into the issue of: Who gets to define the type? Probably the bedrock issue for many Ms. boarders is that they've been told all their lives what to do and how to be and they're sick to death of it. They demand the right to be irrational. Frankly, as far as I can see, they have that right. That's what rights are: the right to choose wrongly (in someone else's opinion).

Hope any of this helped.

 

[WyldOne]

well it appears as if they interpreted you to be blaming women for being in violent relationships.

to be honest, from my perspective it seems that you were talking/lecturing a lot, but not actually hearing what they were saying. we can learn a lot from each other if we would all begin to listen to where everyone is coming from, and listening to what people are truly saying.

but that's just my perspective.

 

[John Forsyth]

Charmedlyfe, the last few days I have been going over there to read what was being said. I read your post. I thought it made a lot of sence. I was just amased that they actually thought you were baiting them. Just amasing, is about all I can say.

 

[Charmedlyfe]

Nualle, I appreciate the comments. I guess I did let my temper get the best of me over there, but I got a little irritated at my questions being ignored, and having my statements taken out of context. The feeling I got was that they were offended at my belief that women themselves have the power to effect change in society, especially regarding this issue (DV). Several of them made statements to the effect that men should deal with the male abusers, and the women should be free to sit back and watch. Kind of like walking into al alley on the bad side of town wearing a blindfold and waving a couple of hundred-dollar bills. While theoretically you SHOULD be able to do that, reality runs contrary. Use some caution and a little common sense to avoid getting robbed.

Last, I wasn't any more or less preachy over there. I simply stated my opinion and defended it against the resident character assassins. Yes, the discussion was one-sided. I was discussing, and they were just plain 'cussing.....

 

[WyldOne]

first of all, i think that you made some good points, and so did some of the ms. members.

Several of them made statements to the effect that men should deal with the male abusers, and the women should be free to sit back and watch.

to be truly proactive, we (general "we") need to educate boys that it is NEVER okay to hit people, especially women that they are in a relationship with. hitting, name calling, etc is NOT an appropriate way to show love.


if there are no abusive relationships to begin with, then there will be no favored/acceptable responses to being in an abusive relationship.

until that day happens, when there are no abusive relationships, we need to also work on the second half of the equation: we MUST teach our girls that it is never okay for a man to hit you, call you names, etc. And we must equip our girls with the skills and inner strength to get out.

and yes, when i was 16 i was in an abusive relationship.

 

[Seeker]

need to educate boys that it is NEVER okay to hit people

I almost agree with that. I think it is wrong to violate anothers rights to Life Liberty and Happiness and that is is generally wrong for people to hit or hurt each other. When hit, however, there is a responsibility to hit back and to cause the aggressor to cease and desist.

An old quote regarding the rights of the oppressed (I don't recall the source) "If'n dey's wants any more rights then dey's gots dens deys gots to up and take'm"

 

[Charmedlyfe]

Wyldone, I do agree on raising children properly (an excellent point, and a given in my opine), but it doesn't stop the problem now. Just as boys should be raised to understand that violence is wrong in a relationship, girls must be raised to understand that they have the right to choose their relaltionships, and the terms of those relationships.

That addresses future problems. For today, the women themselves must accept the fact that there are bad men, and work to avoid them. Also, we must admit to one other less-than-popular fact: sometimes, women contribute to the violence. My mom always told me that men fight with fists, while women fight with words. Sometimes it is unclear who actually started the incident, only who threw the first punch. Sometimes, everyone needs to keep a cool head and mind their tongues as well as their fists. Women can be very effective at verbal abuse. Nothing is harder to deal with than a situation where BOTH parties are abusive, each in turn. I'd like to find solutions to those.