Define victory in Iraq

nate45

New member
This evening I was listening to my favorite radio host Mark Levin http://www.marklevinshow.com/ and a tearful man called in who said he was a Viet Nam veteran. He stated something to the effect that, the 58,000+ lives lost there were wasted, wasted because we did not achieve victory. He said we must win in Iraq so our boys lives will not have been wasted.

Now contrary to what some might think, I'm not anti-war, I'm not anti-military, and I'm most certainly not anti-American. I sincerly want the best for us all.

Now we've spent alot of money in Iraq and alot of good men have died. Many on other threads have said the reasons we got there don't matter, only that we win and complete the mission. That we leave victorious and with honor.

So what is the criteria for victory?

Is their one or to avoid defeat should we just resign ourselves to the fact that were going to be there for a long, long time. That the best we can hope for is a decrease in violence and yet that the possibilty that things could erupt at any moment will always loom?

I don't want our men who died in Iraq to have died in vain, regardless of what I think of the reasoning behind the war. I also don't want to hand a moral victory to those who hate us.

So I ask all of you, 'What is the definition of victory in Iraq? How will we know when the mission is really 'accomplished'?
 

toybox99615

New member
I don't believe there is an answer

to what is victory in Iraq. I believe it is just another talking point for those who follow the leader in this never ending issues in Iraq. When I hear the statement it reminds me of the fight them there before we fight them here. Which is again another talking point with no real substance. Both are concepts that fit well into the Bob Jones University technique of trying to have your opponents prove a negative.

How the US might define winning is not how the Iraqi people necessarily define winning. Iraq is not and will not become a parallel democracy to the US with every nuance of American values integrated into its own society. Iraq is not going to be a Star on the American flag.

The idea that some profess that unless we leave in victory our troops will have died in vain is an insult to those who died doing what they believed was necessary to foster the ideals of our country.
 

nate45

New member
Thats a interesting way of looking at it toybox99615 and if what you say is correct.... Could we not just say we have been succesful and without giving a time certain begin to withdraw our troops?
 

skydiver3346

New member
timetable for leaving Iraq?

I'm not sure there is a definitive time that anyone can tell you when we can get out of Iraq? It is so complicated and complex to say the least. Bottom line is, if we leave the area like the demos are saying they want to do right now, then its all in vain. Reason being is that some other nut case like S. Hussein will take over again and it may be worse next time. The bare miniumum is that everone who even thought about helping the Americans will be slaughtered and you can count on that.
However, we sure as hell can't stay there forever as the cost is so very high in supporting this war (not only money but in lives as well). Best case scenario is leave it to the professionals, Generals, advisers. etc who are over there and know the story firsthand (not by our TV media folks, etc.)
Hopefully it won't be too much longer down the road when the people of Iraq can hold their own against the insurgents/terrorists and we can leave with some sense of accomplishment and dignity. To be able to say tha all our men and women who died in this conflict, did not do so in vain.
 

Bruxley

New member
Victory was defined before the war began and summarized the day it started.
Her is one clip from that day.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4DvIDuk1498

from the speech said:
"This campaign may take longer, and be more difficult than some predict, and helping Iraqis create a united, stable, and free country will require our sustained commitment."

"We have no ambitions in Iraq except to remove a threat and restore control of that country to it's own people."

That was on the day Operation Iraqi Freedom began. The stated goals haven't changed. Here is what the White House has as the goals today, and an outline of the stradegy for achieving them.

http://www.whitehouse.gov/infocus/iraq/iraq_strategy_nov2005.html
VICTORY IN IRAQ IS A VITAL U.S. INTEREST

The war on terrorism is the defining challenge of our generation, just as the struggle against communism and fascism were challenges of the generations before. As with those earlier struggles, the United States is fully committed to meeting this challenge. We will do everything it takes to win.
Prevailing in Iraq will help us win the war on terror.
The terrorists regard Iraq as the central front in their war against humanity. And we must recognize Iraq as the central front in our war on terror.
Osama Bin Laden has declared that the "third world war...is raging" in Iraq, and it will end there, in "either victory and glory, or misery and humiliation."
Bin Laden's deputy Ayman al-Zawahiri has declared Iraq to be "the place for the greatest battle," where he hopes to "expel the Americans" and then spread "the jihad wave to the secular countries neighboring Iraq."
Al Qaida in Iraq, led by Abu Musab al-Zarqawi, has openly declared that "we fight today in Iraq, and tomorrow in the Land of the Two Holy Places, and after there the west."
As the terrorists themselves recognize, the outcome in Iraq -- success or failure -- is critical to the outcome in the broader war on terrorism.
What happens in Iraq will influence the fate of the Middle East for generations to come, with a profound impact on our own national security.
Ceding ground to terrorists in one of the world's most strategic regions will threaten the world's economy and America's security, growth, and prosperity, for decades to come.
An emerging democracy in Iraq will change the regional status quo that for decades has bred alienation and spawned the transnational terrorism that targets us today.
The terrorists' perverse ideology is countered by the advance of freedom and the recognition that all people have the right to live under democracy and the rule of law, free from oppression and fear, with hope and optimism for the future.

Despite much effort to cloud the issue, the goal has been, and is still, Iraqi Freedom and other goals tied to that such as ousting Sadaam and securing the WMDs that have since been found not to be there (alot of people got that one wrong).

Initially the effort was made with the whack-a-mole aproach. Did NOT go well to say the least. General Petraeus however has changed that and done so very successfully.

The cliche' is something like 'those people CAN'T be peacefull. That the will kill each other regardless.

The thing Americans have a hard time getting their heads around is that they EXPECT injustice. We have lived in an environment of rights and an expectation of justice. We get outraged when we perceive a violation of our rights or a miscarriage in justice. It is a part of our national psyche.

People in that region EXPECT INJUSTICE. And that breeds resentment and eventually violence in any people. It's a condition that generation after generation has had proven to them. It's manipulated by their leaders to keep their heads down. The leaders point outside the country to keep that resentment and violence directed away from them.

Iraqis have long lived in a condition of that expectation of injustice. They have been severely treated should anyones head pop up. Now, for the first time in a very long time, there is starting an expectation that they will get to live how they choose. The Petraeus successes aren't borne from overwhelming US military domination, they are borne of the change in the perspective of the Iraqis. The promise made was that they could live how they want to live. Be Sunni, Shiite, etc. and the US wasn't going to force that to change. The only condition was that they also allowed their neighbors the same liberty to live how they wanted to live. Nobody will kill you for how you want to live, and no killing your neighbor for how they want to live. The US military would be their to protect that liberty should they be attacked. As that promise was consistently kept, the Iraqi people became emboldened to stand up for themselves.

This took like wildfire as liberty does among human beings. It came to the point that Iraqis drove out insurgents from their communities with the confidence that the US military was now perceived as an ally, not an adversary. The expectation of justice started as the promise was kept.

The local to central approach worked, and is STILL working very well. The change has been dramatic. The Shiites and Sunnis passed a Fatwa (Muslim 'law') against 'the rule of the gun' and made gaining power via violence a violation of sharia law. That speaks volumes about the effect of liberty of people accustomed to expecting injustice.

The promise needs to be kept. Breaking it will feed that expectation of injustice innate to that culture and result in a resentment that's violence can be pointed in any direction the next charismatic leader points it. KEEP the promise and those people will fight any threat to their new sense of justice.

The people of that region aren't incapable of being peaceful, rather they are expecting injustice and are positioning themselves to survive it. A new sense of expectation of justice will do more to reduce the threats from that region then carpet bombing ever could. That is has been manifesting in Iraq. The promise kept is what is at stake.

Look into what is causing the changes that are taking place in Iraq to come about. Petraeus took this approach vs. Abizaid's whack-a-mole approach. Petraeus is due soon for another report to Congress. Let's hope more attention gets paid this time. His approach has really been brilliant. If one really checks it out it's clear that the human desire for liberty is working in Iraq.
 

warrior poet

New member
I been to Iraq and have made friends there. I won't go into particulars (I did on a past post in another thread.), but suffice to say there ARE Iraqis willing to fight and die for FREEDOM. Some have come to understand freedom after DECADES of repression, and are giving everything they have for it. Are they the norm there? NO. Not yet, but I have seen great improvement bewteen 2003 and 2006 (my last time there) and I am sure things get better everyday.
As an American citizen serving in the Marine Corps, I am willing to fight and die for freedom of my people. I also feel a special kinship with others doing the same in their homeland, and I am willing to fight by their side as long as it will take. The media never reports on the 'good stuff' anymore- good news doesn't sell- so naturally the American public gets hornswaggled by the *ahem* :rolleyes: NEWS.
 

Unregistered

Moderator
I do not expect us to be out of Iraq in my lifetime. Then endpoint set by the govt is ambiguous and too many people are making too much money off it.

Some of the stated goals of the Bush administration really amounts to nothing more than propoganda. For example, the idea that we want Iraq to be a free democracy controlled by its own people seems a little absurd for several reasons. First, many of the people their dislike us, so why do we want them to be in control of their own country? I have no reason to believe they would voluntarily create a pro-western, pro-US government. Second, if we were really concerned about democracy, why don't we do something about Saudi Arabia or Pakistan, which are controlled by Kings and military dictators?

What we really need in Iraq is simply stability and this can be accomplished by installing a pro-western, forceful leader who will force the sects to coexist , and be ready to use extreme violence if they don't.
 

Forwardassist

New member
There is no "victory" in Iraq. At least according the current administration with their narrow terms of victory we might be there for decades, or 100 years stated by McCain. In truth it is an endless war to make certain segments of our society rich on the backs of our military. It seems already things are starting to fall apart again in Iraq. I would not be surprised by the end of the summer that we are back to square one in Iraq. This surge was only an excuse to push the goal line further down the field and punt it to the next administration. What is irritating is the Democrats have done little to address this issue which makes me believe that many in the party are benefiting from the war through donations from defense, and oil companies to bribe them not to address the war. In addition it is good for them because the war creates jobs in their districts from expanding defense companies. I am sadden we will see the day of 10,000 war dead.
 

skydiver3346

New member
Still no answer on leaving Iraq

The above thread answers on leaving Iraq are excellent. Problem is, there is really no realistic or planned timetable by anyone (or how we should implement the pull out safely).
Bottom line, we are just there to stay for a long time I guess. Sad but true. However, we are the defenders of freedom in the world community so that is our job, as no one else wants to do it..........
 

Super-Dave

New member
My biggest problem is that it costs $15 billion dollars per month, and the Government cannot say when we will leave. The only one that has the guts to give a timeline is John Mccain who says we will be there for 100 years!

I do not believe we are there for the Iraqis democracy. Look at what happens when middleeastern countries have elections. Hamas was recently elected. If there were real democracy in Iraq, Muqtada Al Sadr would be president.

In a recent Iraqis poll 70% of Iraqis want us out. Is staying there part of the "freedom".

If china invaded the united states and over through the us government and executed george bush and his sons. Then decided to set up their own pupet government and had chineese troops patroling the streets and doing house to house raids. I would join an insurgency to kick the chineese out.

I might be happy that the current administration was gone, but this is our country. The chineese would be my enemy.
 

wingman

New member
I might be happy that the current administration was gone, but this is our country. The Chinese would be my enemy.

Dang, you induced common sense into the discussion there goes the
fun.:D
 

Glenn E. Meyer

New member
The answer is centric to US interests.

Iraq is no longer a threat to our interests or those of allies (real ones) whose welfare is tied to ours.

If that is assured, what the Iraqis do to each other is irrelevant. They have free will and can stop their internal battles if they want. But they can keep on as long as they don't bother other folks.

- Exploiting their oil is irrelevant. Cheney doesn't need a new Hummer or yacht.
 

ericp

New member
I'd guess successfully propping up a pro-US government, establishing permanent US military bases, and switching them back to dollars for oil.
 
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