Defense with Lever-Action: .44 Mag or .30-30

[Para Bellum]

What would you prefer for defense in a lever-action gun (short range):

.44 Magnum with say Barnes XTB Bullets (10 Shots in a Marlin)

or a

.30-30 (6 Shots in a Marlin)?

and, why would you prefer one over the other?

Stay safe,
PB

PS: Nice Barnes-Pic, isn't it:
http://www.barnesbullets.com/x-citingfacts.php

 

[STAGE 2]

I'd say go with the rifle. No particular reason other than its a rifle cartridge. As for the pic, YOWZA. I'd hate to be on the receiving end of that thing.

 

[springmom]

Daaaaaaaaang, skippy!

From that pic, I'm thinking that 10 of those would do JUST FINE for defense. WOW.

Springmom

 

[Art Eatman]

Since either cartridge would work for self defense, I'd go with the flatter-shooting .30-30 for hunting.

A gazillion percent better odds on more hunting than defending, anyway.

, Art

 

[IZinterrogator]

Like the Box of Truth guy always says, rifles are rifles and pistols are pistols. I think that also counts for the ammo even if it is shot out of a rifle.

 

[PaladinX13]

What would you prefer for defense in a lever-action gun (short range):

.44 Magnum with say Barnes XTB Bullets (10 Shots in a Marlin)

or a

.30-30 (6 Shots in a Marlin)?

and, why would you prefer one over the other?

If I could know that the rifle was only going to be used for defense and only be used at short range, I wouldn't hesitate to get the higher capacity .44 Mag both for the common round with revolvers and the ability to practice defensive drills with low powered/less expensive .44 Special rounds. It's also lighter and slightly shorter making it more handy for defense.

However, for a more general purpose rifle I'd go with the .30-30... but even then I'd long for a .44 or .357 carbine.

 

[U.S.SFC_RET]

30.30 any day of the week,any day of the week.

 

[UniversalFrost]

I am kinda partial to the remington 30/30 170 gr. hollow points myslef. Either for self defense or hunting.

 

[tINY]

I'd take the 44 and put specials in it - less muzzle rise and an extra shot to boot...



-tINY

 

[FS2K]

Good Lord!

Uh...wouldn't over penetration be a concern with something like that in a house?!?

2 feet + of ordinance gel? GEEZ!

 

[Para Bellum]

Penetration is extremely necessary.

Penetration is extremely necessary. You can' hit the CNS without strong penetration.
To avoid unreasonable overpenetration I tend towards the lighter Bullets of the .30-30 like a 125gr HP. That's why the .44 Mag with its heavy bullets makes me sceptical...

 

[Para Bellum]

good tests (gel etc) of .44 from rifle barrels and .30-30s. Any Idea?

What I couldn't find so far are good tests (gel etc) of .44 from rifle barrels and .30-30s. Any Idea?

 

[gak]

.44 Mag

I'm surprised at some of the responses here. He didn't say "general or all purpose rifle," and did not add general hunting into the equation or the term overall versatility (and if he did, in the latter case may actually bring the .44 back into the equation anyway). This is an easy one: 10 rounds out of a .44 Mag. Have had one (actually 3) over the years in addition to a half-dozen .30-30s. The former is my trompin, truck, pest and HD-SD weapon, the latter short(ish) range deer and javelina. While each can do at least part of the other's duty, they each know their (optimal) place. And as the one poster said, .44 Specials can be shot out of the .44 for 1 extra round and even less bang/rise. Despite what the recoil charts say, I've always found the .44 Mag to be less of a "negative big deal" - in just about any load - versus the .30-30 in the boom and recoil department. Ammo price aside (for either), I never go out just "plinking" with the .30-30 other than just to run a few rounds through at the range.

 

[Para Bellum]

Gak

Thanks GAK,

do you have ballistic reasons, experience to base your choice on?
Don't get me wrong, I just wanna know before I buy.

The Range I think of is 0-50 meters. 100 meters max.

 

[629 shooter]

I used to own a Marlin 1894 in 44 mag and actually had it loaded up for defensive purposes at one time. The 44 would be my pick. I can load many rounds for the 44 in a short time and would take the 44 to the range far more than I would a .30-30. I would simply get far more use going with the 44.

As far as power enough for defensive purposes - I am assuming the original post meant against bad guys? - the 44 fired from carbine still has as much power at 100 yards as a lot of 44 handguns produce at the muzzle. And I doubt many would say a 44 mag at point blank range won't do the job.

 

[gak]

Para Bellum - No I don't have specific ballistics, but they're out there: many TFL (and other) threads/posts have links for - or show data directly - either putting the .44 on par with - or ahead of - .30-30 within the 100yd range. And, informally, this has also been my experience in the field. Nevertheless, for defensive purposes it is at least the equal within typical "home range." That, the less (to me) bang/shove factor (again despite what you might have seen on paper) plus the extra 4 rounds in the tube - and ease of carrying the cartridges (10 rds + in the pockets of .44 vs 10 rds + .30-30) does it. No, the .44 doesn't have as good a BC, etc, as the .30-30...so, if buying a gun for the discreet or primary purpose of deer (etc) hunting, I'd pick the .30-30, though the .44 does a decent job "within its range."

I have posted this link before - an excellent reference by Chuck Hawks: http://www.chuckhawks.com/handgun_rifle_cartridges.htm ...though as I said not perfect (in my book) regarding recoil. You can see that Chuck is not a big fan of pistol-cartridges in rifles - when compared to same-format rifle-cartridges. Although he does not say it outright, I believe his general purpose of comparison is hunting. So...while the following actually does not help my case re the .44 vs .30-30 comparison, ballistically, especially for hunting purposes, you can see the .44 still is formidable at 100 yds, and more than adequate for defensive purposes. That and, again, the extra rounds and - to me - less recoil/bang (= quicker follow-up shots) - gives the HD/SD nod to the .44.

 

[skeeter1]

.44 Magnum

As mentioned above, the .44 gives you the option of practicing with .44Spls. My Marlin is chambered for .357 Magnum, but that gives me the option of using .38Spls as well. It wouldn't be my first choice for HD/SD (for that I'd grab a handgun first), but I'm sure it would get the job done.

Your tagline says that you're in Europe, so depending on the country, a handgun might be out of the question.

 

[dave0520]

What is the purpose of the picture? It shows a .308 Winchester shooting through 16 inches of ballistic gel. That kind of bullet is not factory loaded in the .30-30, so the picture is pretty much irrelevent in this discussion.

I would go with the .30-30. Like IZinterrogator said, "Rifles are rifles, and pistols are pistols".


Edited to add: Parabellum, it is the heavy bullets of the .44 magnum that cause it to penetrate. Sectional Density is more important in penetration than velocity is. The .45-70 has a very low velocity in its original loading, yet it can easily penetrate through thick buffalo.

 

[Para Bellum]

The real story behind my question

OK, folks, thanks so far and here a bit more info or clarification:

The purpose is defense against a specific BG who tried to kill us before with a knife, was on speed, failed, and now is in a mental institution about to be released soon. Our legal system makes sure that we won't be told when he's loose again. Sad but true.

I do carry a handgun 24/7 anyway and I am pretty good with my pistols and my knife and my hands (years of training with and against each of these).

But: A family member of the specific BG and the BG himself were at our doorstep before they entered and when I have the time for it, I want a rifle or shotgun to grab before he makes it through our door or windows. If there's no time, my Glocks will do the job. But as I see a handgun only as an emergency tool on my way to a long gun I ask myself the posted question.

For my home-defense I have a Steyr AUG Semi Auto Bullpup .223 with 30 and 42rds Magazines. That's as good as a defense rifle gets IMHO.

The BGs last attack happend in our office (he also tried to hit us at home after he hit the office). So I also want a long gun for the office. I don't want to buy another AUG. So my favorites are a lever-action Marlin or a 12ga Coach gun.

I am well into ballistics and know that the weight of the .44 Mag Bullet causes it to overpenetrate and be rather ineffective in Humans. Thats why I hesitate. My personal favorit defense rifle cartridge is the .223 with Federal Law Enforcement LE223T3 bullets. I can buy these legally here. A .223 64gr soft point is similar but not as excellent through and after glass.

So, given all these facts, I hope and/or think that the .30-30 with a light (125gr etc) bullet would penetrate less than the .44 from a Marlin and do at least the same damage to a human. But since I am not a hunter, I have no personal terminal ballistic experience yet.

PS: The pic posted above shows a Barnes .308 Bullet in gel. I couldn't find a gel-pic of a Barnes-bullet in .44, sorry.

PPS: And thanks for that link: http://www.chuckhawks.com/handgun_rifle_cartridges.htm it was very informative indeed!

 

[gak]

The concern over bullet weight and overpenetration might argue in favor of a lever .357. We all know that, in many loads, the .357 is one of the most lauded manstoppers amongst pistol rounds there is -- perhaps tops (or near) amongst revolvers especially with the 125 gr jhp. Therefore, it stands to reason that out of a 16-20" tube it'd be that much more effective - and like the .44, carry 10 rounds.

I do not think - for a moment - that the .30-30 is a bad SD round, to the contrary - it can be devastating within its effective range. But I still believe a nice lightweight "pistol carbine" (I shoot Rossi (EMF) 92s in both .44 and .357) , loaded with an effective round, makes for a better "in home" or "close to home" HD/SD platform than the hunting-oriented .30-30 format. If stepping to the semi-auto world, the PC40 Ruger might be just the ticket, its attractiveness limited only by its relatively low capacity mag--for a semi-auto carbine. Me, I have in various "circumstances" in or near the house -- in rough order from the bedside: .357 Mag DA revolver with .38 +Ps, .30 M1 Carbine with 15-30 SPs/16 ga. pump (appx. same distance), a .40 Auto pistol, and .357 and .44 Mag levers - and yes .30-30 Win 94 lever(s). I will also second the AR .223 format (though I prefer the 6.8, can't argue the availability and cost advantage of the 5.56), and add Mini 30 (x39) as decent HD/SD rifle fare as well. To me, the .30-30 just has too high a boom - and too low a firepower/capacity - factor to be optimal for the duty(s) mentioned.