Dangerous Trigger Jobs

[mitchcoyote]

This is in the SAFETY section of one of my handguns' Owner's Manual, pg.5, warning number 28.
28. DANGER: Don't try to change your firearm's trigger pull, because alteration of trigger pull usually affects sear engagement and may cause accidental discharge.

 

[Lycanthrope]

And to think I paid good money for that Power Custom sear jig......

Never considered myself such a wild risk taker.......

 

[brickeyee]

The lawyers are coming!
The lawyers are coming!
Hide the wife, children, and dogs!
Put the sheep put as a decoy.

A correctly performed trigger job can lower the weight and remain safe.
The biggest request I get is for something with less creep.
Butcher the hammer and sear and you can create problems.

 

[shield20]

That's not bad really - you should read my HK P2000 manual where it says the gun must be cleared 1st before returning it to a holster (several times they explain how "cleared" is unloaded in chamber and mag).

pg 25

 

[croyance]

A good gunsmith should know how light a trigger can be made without causing accidental discharges. They certainly don't set it at the factory at that point or anywhere near that point.
I would be wary of some unknowledgable person doing a trigger job, but that would be true even if the trigger was to be made heavier.

Manuals are interesting things. For one, they would be seen as the official word of a manufacturer and therefore are made with juries in mind. Certainly they never exist to teach or extend wisdom.
Had my learning been only limited to manuals, I would never have learned how to properly clean a gun, for instance.

 

[Ozzieman]

And what is the point of this thread?

Are you telling us that any modification to the trigger of any gun is dangerous! If you are, it shows how little you know about firearms and firearms competition. There is no such thing as dangerous guns, there are only dangerous gun owners.

 

[rhgunguy]

There is no such thing as dangerous guns, there are only dangerous gun owners.

I beg to differ. I bought a used 14.45 Limited that had a poorly done trigger job. I did a bunch of dry fire drills with it and a few months latter it slam-fired on me when I loaded it at the range. Ripped part of my left thumb-nail off. And hurt like heck for awhile. I seriously doubt anyone could hold me responsible as a dangerous gun-owner for that.

 

[ranburr]

Guys, don't pay attention to mitchcoyote. He seems to go down this road every week or so. I am not sure if he is really this ignorant or if he just likes to stir things up. Do a search on his postings and you will see what I mean. This guy is obviously a "yahoo" of the highest order. Mitchcoyote, you have just about beaten this horse to death. If you are just trying to stir things up, find a new topic. If you really believe this dribble, try and educate yourself. Any way you look at it, you know just enough about guns to be dangerous. Your past postings generally show your ignorance where guns are concerned, not to mention the growing pile of fecal matter they seem to leave.

ranburr

 

[mitchcoyote]

Ranbur, I guess your not going to pay any attention to the post just before yours. Or are you gonna start calling him names like you do me?
Look , if your too immature to handle my threads or posts then stay away from them. Your smartelic and pathetic comments and name calling is not appreciated at all. I am asking you to leave me alone. Thanks.......

 

[Gewehr98]

So you found a dangerous gunsmith.

beg to differ. I bought a used 14.45 Limited that had a poorly done trigger job. I did a bunch of dry fire drills with it and a few months latter it slam-fired on me when I loaded it at the range. Ripped part of my left thumb-nail off. And hurt like heck for awhile. I seriously doubt anyone could hold me responsible as a dangerous gun-owner for that.

When you sent that Para-Ord back to the factory, what did they do, and how was the trigger when you got it back? Or since the gun was used, perhaps the previous owner kitchen-table smithed the trigger without knowing what he was doing? (Which would be a dangerous gun-owner, in and of itself)

 

[ranburr]

Well mitchcoyote, I guess you could tell your mommy. rhgunguy's post differs from yours in that he understands that there is a difference in a poor and a good trigger job. Your lack of knowledge on the subject is pathetic. If you can't handle a little criticism, don't start such ridiculous threads on subjects that you know nothing about. I stand by my previous statements.

ranburr

 

[Wisby]

Mitchcoyote strikes again

Maybe if post the same topic once a week for the next year or so it will come true.

http://www.thefiringline.com/forums/showthread.php?t=201487

 

[WESHOOT2]

bias vs knowledge; educate me

What, specifically, makes my 1.5lb-triggered Caspian 1911 unsafe or dangerous?

In over 10,000 rds (to include significant ammo development for 'driving' compensated carry 45's) it has never fired without my intent.

I had (and sold) a Glock M20 with its trigger pull reduced (by me; I was so proud) to under 2lb, and this gun was used extensively in developing ultra-high-performance ammo, and it, too, never fired without my intent.

In fact, of all the guns I've owned, including some real crappers (Sterling, RG), and some real good ones (S&W, Taurus, Ruger, Llama, High Standard, Charter Arms, EAA, Springfield Armory), and ALL the guns I've shot, none have ever fired without my intent.

So, based on some years experience with light triggers on competition guns (others, mostly), and light or lightened triggers on my carry guns ("all my handguns are carry handguns") I am unsure as to why anyone would consider my triggers "unsafe".

Any position offered will need to make sense, though......

 

[DAVID NANCARROW]

mitchcoyote-despite what you read in your manuals, the safe reduction in trigger pull weight is achievable in just about every firearm. This is no rocket science, but just a matter of angles and spring weights.

Mass produced firearms, just like anything piece of machinery which is massed produced, is the result of tolerance stack. The factory is not generally set up to produce really precise trigger pulls because it takes hand fitting of the parts.

That said, unless you understand, or your gunsmith understands what is involved and have the proper tools, jigs and fixtures, its probably safe to assume that not just anyone should be fooling around with the fire control mechanism.

Good example is WESHOOT2. He has obviously mastered and understands what needs to happen in order to acheive a safe, reliable trigger pull.

OTOH, rhgunguy bought a USED pistol which was worked on by someone who did NOT know how to do it-what really disturbs me is that the fella apparently sold the pistol to rhgunguy without telling him. Can't hold the mfgr responsible for that.

Bottom line-if you do not understand what is involved in setting up a light trigger, you should, in the interest of safety, either leave it alone or take your firearm to someone who does if you wish to have a safe, light trigger pull. But to make a blanket statement that all lightened trigger pulls are inherently unsafe tells me that you do not understand what is involved and are speaking of something you do not know. Thats okay-like Will Rogers once said, "Everyone is ignorant, just on different subjects."

 

[Jart]

<sigh>

Two threads in the same forum on the same dead horse? This could test my Goldilocks kumbaya online effervescent personality…

This is in the SAFETY section of one of my handguns' Owner's Manual, pg.5, warning number 28.
28. DANGER: Don't try to change your firearm's trigger pull, because alteration of trigger pull usually affects sear engagement and may cause accidental discharge.

But on the specific topic of manuals, would that be the same manual that has this on page 4, in BOLD?

WARNING:
Securing your firearm may inhibit access to it in a defense situation and result in injury or death.
WARNING:
Failure to properly secure a firearm may result in injury or death.

A cynic might be moved to conclude that one just can’t win with that manual.

Nobody here will deny you your right to prefer triggers dredged directly from the river Styx, complete with silt and gravel, traversing a length more often associated with the pull starter of a chainsaw and employing a return spring from a White Freightliner.

However, convincing anybody else that we should jump on board your bandwagon will, I'm afraid, prove frustrating. For whatever reason, most here will side with Jeff Cooper when his opinions and yours are diametrically opposed. This may even include those instances where you and Taurus' manual are aligned opposite Mr. Cooper.

Trigger-cocking pistols have their place and many prefer them. However, proselytizing on their behalf in general and the PT145 version in particular won't bear much fruit. I'm sure the PT is a fine piece of equipment and we're glad you like it and feel safe with it, but those that have decided it's not the optimum choice for them will not be dissuaded by your safety concerns.

These are not the droids you're looking for.
Move along.

IMHO

 

[rhgunguy]

I took the para back to the shop I bought it from. The owner said he would have it taken care of, no cost to me. He sent it to a guy that has been shooting and working on paras since they were sold as frames. He got it back to working order in a week with a 2-3# trigger pull that breaks like glass.

Consequently, I from here on out I only buy my guns from that shop and only have them worked on by that smith. A properly tuned trigger is a must for competition and is not dangerous to a safe gun owner. When the gun slam-fired it was pointed in a safe direction. As long as you keep you finger off the trigger until you are ready to shoot, you are fine.

I also shoot a CZ75 in production. The first shoot always gave me trouble. Now I pre-load the trigger past half-cock. I haven't had any ADs doing that. As long as you have trigger control you can have your finger on the trigger with presure.

 

[croyance]

I don't think it is fair to say that most here prefer the SA pull or Jeff Cooper's ideas. Even a DA or DAO trigger can be improved
The interesting thing is that going by that manual, modifying a trigger to be heavier (and grittier or whatever bad characteristics you can think of) is also dangerous.

Safety begins between the ears, nothing will change that.

 

[Ozzieman]

I will say again

There is no such thing as dangerous guns, there are only dangerous gun owners.
If you were dumb enough to shoot a dangerous gun then the only thing to blame is the person pulling the trigger.
Yes if you let some num nuts do a trigger job its a dangerious gun but again the only one to blame is the person pulling the trigger.
IF you dont like light triggers then you shouldnt handle guns that HAVE light triggers, my suggestion is to buy Hi-points, they seem to be more your speed.

 

[mitchcoyote]

When I joined this forum I improperly assumed a man was intitled to his opinion. I have only offered my opinion and anybody is welcome to counter that opinion . I can even accept criticizing opinions....However personal attacks and name calling is childish and uncalled for... Several of you have become bitterly rude with your comments about me. All I am asking is that the personal attacks stop and entitle me to my own opinion like anyone else who offers their opinion on this forum.....

 

[SteelToe]

well said but....

When I joined this forum I improperly assumed a man was intitled to his opinion. I have only offered my opinion and anybody is welcome to counter that opinion . I can even accept criticizing opinions....However personal attacks and name calling is childish and uncalled for... Several of you have become bitterly rude with your comments about me. All I am asking is that the personal attacks stop and entitle me to my own opinion like anyone else who offers their opinion on this forum.....

I agree with what you are saying aoung respectng eachother BUT, I bet a lot of people took it as a personal attack when you claimed that competitive shooting was "unsafe".

We as gun people get flack from people left and right all day long. We come here (I think) to be with our own that loves guns as much as we do. It probably came as a shock when you made that post. Maybe you could have just expressed your concern for tigger jobs in general and not attacked the sport itself. See what I am saying?

And on your other post about the manual saying do not do trigger jobs this is ONLY to cover them in the courts. Savage rifles include an accutrigger that can be adjusted down to 1 and 1/2 pound pull for accurate shooting on their rifles. 1 and 1/2 is sasfe for trained shooters but this way they are covered if taken to court they can say they shipped the rifle at 5 pounds. make sense?

This is a day and age where gun makers used to be abke to be sued if someone used their guns in a crime. What sense does that make? (luckily this law has been changed) The warning against trigger jobs in gun manuals is exatly like a cup of coffe from McDonalds saying CAUTION HOT!!

I for one just want to say welcome to the boards. Glad to have ya. Just try to think how things you say come across to others as well. They will do the same.

Peace