Danger in reduced loads with slow stick powders?

Elkins45

New member
I have a surplus of IMR 4831 but am doing a lot of shooting with cast bullets these days. Is there any inherent danger in using reduced loads of slow burning stick powders in rifle cartridges like the 308? I'm thinking about trying 30 grains of 4831 behind a 170 cast bullet for a range load.

I have read many times about problems with reduced loads using spherical powders but I don't think I've ever seen similar warnings with regard to stick powders like 4831. Any advice?
 

papa shooter

New member
load

There are several loads listed for the 170gr cast bullet in my Lyman #48 manual but none for IMR4831. you might drop them a line or give them a call before you get started. They and all the bullet manufacturers are a great help(if you just ask).

Pap
 

Rifleman1776

New member
There is a risk of producing excessive pressures with greatly reduced loads. Some call this 'detonation'. But true detonation is something else entirely and is a condition that is as dangerous as it is rare. But, you can get frighteningly excessive pressures with very low charges. Some people add fillers to the case to prevent this. But that practice also has inherent dangers. (I still have a letter from NRA's old Dope Bag explaining this).
Do check reloading manuals for minimum loads. You can try reducing slightly in steps, just like when working up max loads. I used to load two rounds for each increment and examine cases carefully after each shot to work up, or down, my loads. I believe field testing will answer your question better than you can get from a discussion forum.
 

TXGunNut

New member
If you are able to reduce it safely it's unlikely you'll be able to get consistent results and accuracy will suffer.
 

FrankenMauser

New member
30 grains in a .308 case is borderline, in my opinion. The charge weight has been reduced enough to be questionable, but is still high enough to potentially work. ...But you never know. To me, it's not worth the risk; but many people love going on and on about how the detonation "phenomenon" is not real, and is such a rare event, as to not be considered a real risk.


I would find a better powder, but it's up to you.
 
Hodgdon says H4895 can be reduced to 60% of listed maximum loads for it, but their tech said not to try that with IMR 4895 or other stick powders. He says H4895 is unique in that regard A general rule of thumb for rifle powders is to be sure they occupy at least 70% of the empty space under the bullet.

Reducing IMR 4831 for cast bullets would not likely be very successful anyway, unless you were driving the bullets to jacketed bullet velocities. As pressure decreases the powder not only burns less efficiently, but its ignition can become erratic and muzzle velocity variation gets high and a lot of unburnt powder winds up in the bore and on the ground.

A fellow on another board had a photo of a case full of 4831 that had fused and not burned, leaving a light bullet stuck in the bore. Because powders supply their own oxygen, we don't think of them as extinguishing or going out, but if pressure and temperature drop too rapidly (a bullet is too easy to push down the bore) before the burn gets well enough under way and while much of the deterrent has yet to be burned away, the partial pressurization with the non-combustible propellant gases can apparently snuff the flame.

I consider the above a likely precursor event to detonation; fusing of at least part of the powder in the case. That's because detonation requires a shock wave be able to travel through a combustible material faster than the normal speed of sound in that material (which it achieves by densifying the material by compression at the wave front), and with enough kinetic energy to take the place of flame heat in initiating combustion. Having a fused solid gives a much better medium for the shock wave to travel through. Grains tend to break it up, which is why they are hard to detonate until the quantity gets large enough to mimic a fluid. The bottom line is, you don't want to set up situations in which powder can fuse inside a case.

Speed of the powder is not the only factor in detonation. One Finnish site describes a .308 that burst firing subsonic lead bullet loads of just 3.1 grains of Vihtavuori N320, a fast pistol powder about half way between Bullseye and Unique in burn rate. It would take almost 20 grains of N320 just to reach normal .308 pressures with the bullet used, so this isn't something that may be explained by a double charge.

In general, you just don't want to run powders of any burn rate below their normal operating pressures and load levels. If you want to run light loads, a bulky powder like SR4759 is good. If you want to run very light loads, that's what Trail Boss is for.
 
Clifford L. Hughes

Elkins45:

About forty years ago the gun writers were having a field day trying to produce a secondary explosive effect (detonation) with slow powders. All agreed that it does take place; however, no one could reproduce it. As far as I know the jury is still out. I think, to be on the safe side, that you should drop the idea of using 4831 and go to a faster burring rate powder.

Semper Fi.

Gunnery sergeant
Clifford L. Hughes
USMC Retired
 
Last edited:

Clark

New member
Someone correct me if I am wrong, but I think there is a perfect analogy between detonation and UFOs:

There are reports of detonation.
There are report of UFOs.

We cannot reproduce detonation in the lab.
We cannot find any UFOs when we want them.

We cannot prove there are or are not detonation incidents.
We cannot prove there are or are not UFOs.

Some people want to believe in detonation.
Some people want to believe in UFOs.

Some people want to disbelief in detonation.
Some people want to disbelieve in UFOs.

People tend to accept information that confirms their convictions more than information that contradicts their convictions, so the two camps become more entrenched over time.
 

JerryM

New member
I would reduce to a point, but I once wanted to load a 30-06 level load in my 300 Wby. I used several powders, including 4831, 4350, and 4064.
I was never able to get what I wanted, but I did get some delayed firing with a second or less interval. I gave up. The case was just too large to get what I wanted.

Personally I don't think it is unsafe except for the delay in ignition.

Regards,
Jerry
 
I can construct a chain of events that would theoretically make detonation possible, but as the anecdotal evidence confirms, it's highly improbable on a random basis. The stars have to line up just right. The main problem for the laboratory is, once you close a case by seating a bullet, you loose control of the exact distribution of the powder charge inside, which I've come to suspect is critical.

As one writer was pointing out recently, one of the problems for the firearms industry has been that there is no NASA or other heavily funded outfit interested in firing millions of rounds in thousands of actions under controlled conditions to identify oddball problems and conditions, much less firing millions of rounds of reduced loads-only to experience the odd detonation. The military isn't interested in studying catsneeze rifle loads or, for that matter, reloads of any kind, so these kinds of things weren't done while the SBRL was still active.

There's an interesting comment by Wm. C. Davis, Jr., on page 133 of the out of print NRA publication, Handloading, in which statistical analysis and control of test conditions and interaction of components is being discussed (Interaction in this sense is when one component influences how another influences the load. For example, you rank primers by the velocity they produce with a fixed load, then change just the case or just the bullet or just the powder charge, and it results in the primer rank changing order.):

"As a matter of experience in ballistic testing, it often happens that two samples from the same lot of reference ammunition, fired on consecutive days, will show differences between averages that cannot reasonably be ascribed to the random shot-to-shot variation observed on the two separate occasions of firing. This is due apparently to some systematic difference in test conditions that cannot be eliminated, even by the most diligent efforts to control the procedures, and has plagued investigators in ballistics laboratories for many years."​

Bottom line: things happen that you can't control, including in laboratory testing.

It follows from that and the nature of random distribution, that once in a long while some event occurs that you might have to fire a million rounds to see once. As I said before, nobody wants to fund that level of testing in a lab environment. But with many millions of rounds fired by civilian shooters every year, sooner or later, someone sees them.

I don't go through life ever expecting to experience a detonation and I don't recommend you get over excited about the possibility. It's small. But given that several strange things can happen in largely empty cases, why increase the odds of such things happening to you when that condition is easy to avoid?
 
Last edited:

Slamfire

New member
I have a surplus of IMR 4831 but am doing a lot of shooting with cast bullets these days. Is there any inherent danger in using reduced loads of slow burning stick powders in rifle cartridges like the 308? I'm thinking about trying 30 grains of 4831 behind a 170 cast bullet for a range load.

I have read many times about problems with reduced loads using spherical powders but I don't think I've ever seen similar warnings with regard to stick powders like 4831. Any advice?

P.O Ackley's Handbook, Vol 1 page 91, has a lengthy discussion on rifles that blew up with reduced charges of 4350 and 4831.

Plenty of rockets, anti tank weapons have blown up due to burn rate instability, I was told, in class, it was due to pressure wave interference, so I don't see a reason why it cannot occur with cartridges.

I do not recommend using reduced charges of slow burning powders.

Things that have a 1:1,000,000 occurrence rate are hard to duplicate under controlled conditions, but just because all the swans you have seen are white, does not mean there are not black swans out there.
 

WIL TERRY

New member
THERE has been plenty of information written in the past forty years on the SEE that takes some rifles and some cannons too and blows 'em to bits.
Little itty bitty amounts of slow burning propellents can do it in fine style it seems.....sometimes.

" SECONDARY EXPLOSION EFFECT "
 

Clark

New member
Slamfire
..Things that have a 1:1,000,000 occurrence rate are hard to duplicate under controlled conditions,..

If detonations occur at that rate, and we handloaders blow up a guns on a average of every 10,000 rounds with the wrong powder, and blame it on detonation 0.1% of the time, then it will be very hard to show detonations are real.
 
Top